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National Anthem after Mattins

Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick Admin Emeritus
in Ecclesiantics
In Days of Yore, it was not uncommon to find the National Anthem sung at the conclusion of Morning Prayer on a Sunday. I've experienced this on both sides of the Atlantic, although it's been a mighty while. I'm wondering where this convention came from, and what happened to it. The sad decline in Mattins on Sundays is another matter entirely, but for the moment, I'm wondering about the habit of belting out 'O Say Can You See' or 'God Save the [Sovereign]' after Mattins?

Comments

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    The Church Of My Youth (60 years ago...) was a very low-church Prayer Book place, and Morning Prayer was the principal Sunday service. I don't recall ever having sung the National Anthem at the end, though I guess we may well have sung it during or after the Remembrance Day service.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    edited July 1
    If there was a church (and I've encountered things like this before) that sang "O Say Can You See" as part of its liturgy, I’d flee. I’ve encountered worse (after the collection plate, every Sunday getting “long may our land be bright / with freedom’s holy light” (yikes, yikes, yikes)) and fled from that church.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    I have a vague recollection that the hymn America (My country ‘‘tis of thee) was sung at the offertory at Morning Prayer in the Richmond (Virginia) parish where I attended for a year.

    We sang O Canada as the last hymn last Sunday but that was because of Canada Day (which is actually today [Wednesday] but appears to be a movable feast for liturgical purposes….)
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    I have been at a St David's Day civic service which ended with "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". Not Mattins though, and it was on a weekday.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    The church I used to attend over fifty years ago (CofE) used to end the monthly parade service, attended by scouts, guides etc with their banners, with God save the Queen, as it then was. I didn't totally approve even then, but it can be defended since the UK National Anthem is at least framed as a prayer.

    That doesn't seem to apply to most other national anthems, and some appear not just to be sung about the country but actually addressed to it, which strikes me as idolatry.

    It also gets included at some places on Remembrance Day.

  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    I recall God save the Queen being sung after Mass on Christ the King at St Edeldreda’s Ely Place back in 1999. I was horrified & remained seated along with a recalcitrant old Irishman.

    Interestingly Mattins seems not to have been a big deal in Oz: I firstv( and last) sang the service back in 2007 when the choir of which I was a member) sang it @ Westminster Abbey). I understand that back in the old days in Oz itvwas early morning said Communion, then said morning prayer about 10 bulked upbwith lengthy sermon then Evensong once a month with any luck.
  • FrolloFrollo Shipmate Posts: 17
    Not sung, but every so often our place's organist gives the Ukrainian national anthem as a voluntary. And a very good tune it is too.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I’m told that the National Anthem used to be sung on Feast Sunday in my church, as well as a Remembrance ceremony at the war memorial in the churchyard.
    The latter happened last Sunday but not the National Anthem, though the service was Holy Communion rather than Mattins. The uniformed groups were present in small numbers at the ceremony, but only one Scout Leader stayed for the service.
    Of course, some complained, but I was not one of them.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    It seems that it's usual (in some Places) to sing the National Dirge on civic or national occasions, but not at other times, or at'normal' services.

    For this relief, much thanks...
    :innocent:

    @Hookers_Trick - were there many churches in the UK, back in Days of Yore, in which you experienced this oddity, or was it the custom in just one or two, possibly with Royal connections?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited July 2
    I’m aware it appears in some American hymnals, but I’ve never heard “The Star-Spangled Banner” sung in church that I can recall, including Episcopal churches. (And I’ve never heard an American call it “O Say, Can You See.” It’s “The Star-Spangled Banner” or the National Anthem in my experience.) Even if a church were to sing it, I certainly wouldn’t expect it to be sung with any regularity, just on or around the Fourth of July, maybe.


  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I started attending MP in the Anglican Church of Canada in early seventies. Never was the national anthem sung at the end of the service.
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    Frollo wrote: »
    Not sung, but every so often our place's organist gives the Ukrainian national anthem as a voluntary. And a very good tune it is too.

    One of the pleasures of watching sport is that you get to hear anthems that are not as dreadful as the UK's National Dirge. There are some crackers out there.
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    Sandemaniac wrote: »
    One of the pleasures of watching sport is that you get to hear anthems that are not as dreadful as the UK's National Dirge. There are some crackers out there.

    I loved the soaring tune of East Germany's anthem, Auferstanden aus Ruinen, even if it got a little marchy in the middle. Hope of postwar rebuilding, the young leading the way, and the sun always shining on "Germany" (their version of it, anyway). If you ignore the politics (and nobody should), it's quite uplifting; one thing the Soviet club was good at was inspiring anthems.

  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    Oblatus wrote: »
    Sandemaniac wrote: »
    One of the pleasures of watching sport is that you get to hear anthems that are not as dreadful as the UK's National Dirge. There are some crackers out there.

    I loved the soaring tune of East Germany's anthem, Auferstanden aus Ruinen, even if it got a little marchy in the middle. Hope of postwar rebuilding, the young leading the way, and the sun always shining on "Germany" (their version of it, anyway). If you ignore the politics (and nobody should), it's quite uplifting; one thing the Soviet set were good at was inspiring anthems.

  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I’m aware it appears in some American hymnals, but I’ve never heard “The Star-Spangled Banner” sung in church that I can recall, including Episcopal churches. (And I’ve never heard an American call it “O Say, Can You See.” It’s “The Star-Spangled Banner” or the National Anthem in my experience.) Even if a church were to sing it, I certainly wouldn’t expect it to be sung with any regularity, just on or around the Fourth of July, maybe.

    I've only ever heard "My Country 'Tis of Thee" and "O Beautiful for Spacious Skies" in church on July 4.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I’m aware it appears in some American hymnals, but I’ve never heard “The Star-Spangled Banner” sung in church that I can recall, including Episcopal churches. (And I’ve never heard an American call it “O Say, Can You See.” It’s “The Star-Spangled Banner” or the National Anthem in my experience.) Even if a church were to sing it, I certainly wouldn’t expect it to be sung with any regularity, just on or around the Fourth of July, maybe.
    I've only ever heard "My Country 'Tis of Thee" and "O Beautiful for Spacious Skies" in church on July 4.
    And more recently, “Lift Every Voice and Sing.”


  • Gamma GamalielGamma Gamaliel Shipmate
    I've only ever heard the National Anthem sung at Remembrance Day services.

    By the way, is it Matins or Mattins?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Gamma Gamaliel wrote: »
    By the way, is it Matins or Mattins?

    Yes!
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    We have never sung it. The only time anything. Connected with political institutions is mentioned is when political leaders are prayed for in the intercessions.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    I guess that, in England, it's mostly sung (if sung at all) in Anglican places, the monarch being the C of E's Governor and all that...
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    It's sung at every service I go to.

    Though that might be because the only service I go to is the Act of Remembrance...
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    :lol: :naughty:
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    Bishops Finger wrote: »
    :lol: :naughty:

    Well, as bellringers, our job is to ring God's doorbell, then bugger off sharpish before he spots us...
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 3
    Ha! Then how do you get to stay and hear (if not sing) the National Dirge?
    :frowning:
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    It closes the Remembrance Sunday service. I stay for that one, especially as we don't ring down until afterwards.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    Fair enough. I guessed as much, as it comes at the end of the service at Our Place, too, or so I have been told...
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    Too many of my family still out there in foreign fields for me to miss that one.
  • Celtic KnotweedCeltic Knotweed Shipmate
    Several of mine too 😥
    Plus it's outside, which keeps it short! Held at the village war memorial, which happens to be in the churchyard.
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    We sing the English and Welsh national anthems at the end of the Eucharist on Remembrance Sunday and have also sung them for occasions such as the king’s coronation. Some people sit down and don’t participate in the English anthem, which the rest of us respect their choice to do. We also sing the Welsh National anthem on the Sunday nearest to St David’s Day.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    The 'Armistice Day' service at the Tin Tabernacle Of My Youth was the only one My Old Dad attended - he'd been in the Army, and narrowly escaped death or capture at Dunkirk. He lost a lot of his mates (he himself happened to be on leave at the time).

    The National Anthem was sung at that service, of course, but from what others are saying, it does seem to be restricted to Remembrance Sunday and/or civic occasions.
  • Ex_OrganistEx_Organist Shipmate
    edited July 6
    Aravis wrote: »
    We sing the English and Welsh national anthems

    Sadly there is no "English" national anthem, We are stuck with only the British/Royal one.

    Fixed coding - Nenya Ecclesiantics Host
  • AravisAravis Shipmate
    Sorry, I should perhaps have specified “British National Anthem in English and Welsh National Anthem in Welsh”. I tend to label them by the language rather than the nationality.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    If you accept Flanders and Swann's theory that 'Jerusalem' is in fact the English national anthem, it is sung at least once a year in our place, not counting weddings. 'God save the Quing' only gets sung on the Sunday after the coronation. The official British national anthem is sung on Remembrance Sunday.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    :lol:

    I saw what you did there...
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited July 7
    I think F&S pointed our the absurdity of an "English" national song being titled after a foreign city. They also suggested "There'll always be an England", pointing out there'll always be a North Pole, if some dangerous clown doesn't go and melt it. Unfortunately it turns out that humanity is collectively a dangerous clown.

    I can report however that the Welsh national anthem does not in fact contain any rude jokes about the English.

    I think we ought to go for one of those national anthems without any actual words. I'd like to nominate RVW's Fantasia on Greensleeves.
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    What is the history of hymns and worship songs being sung at official church services that refer directly or indirectly (but specifically - ie, that can't be used for a different country, or a different ruler/sovereign) to the country where the service is being held or its leader (not counting psalms and other ancient hymns that refer to Israel and its leaders but can be interpreted as referring to a present day country or ruler)? Is it all an outgrowth of 18th- and 19th-century nationalism? Or are there earlier examples, even ancient ones?
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