Water bottles in the choir

If the choir is up near the altar or otherwise visible in front of the congregation during the service, is it inappropriate for them to drink from water bottles during the service, absent a coughing fit or other immediate need for water? I am in a church choir now and I worry that if I have my water bottle with me and drink from it during the service, that it would be irreverent and would also distract the congregation. But maybe it is ok while seated during the homily/sermon, even if it is not ok during prayers or while standing? What do you think?
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Comments

  • ZappaZappa Shipmate
    Personally I would argue this is generally unnecessary, outside the tropics. An affectation.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited August 3
    If the choir is up near the altar or otherwise visible in front of the congregation during the service, is it inappropriate for them to drink from water bottles during the service, absent a coughing fit or other immediate need for water? I am in a church choir now and I worry that if I have my water bottle with me and drink from it during the service, that it would be irreverent and would also distract the congregation. But maybe it is ok while seated during the homily/sermon, even if it is not ok during prayers or while standing? What do you think?
    It’s relatively common in my experience, and not something I worry about. I can assure you that if I have a solo, I want a water bottle handy. I would only use it when seated, and I wouldn’t use it during a prayer or or Scripture reading. I think most take that approach.

    At our place, we actually have reusable water bottles for the choir, which provides some uniformity. They’re not as big as some water bottles, and they’re navy blue, so not brightly colored or multicolored.


  • Lots of people have physical reasons to use water bottles, ranging from solos to allergies that cause a scratchy throat. I'd much rather someone bring s water bottle when needed than forgo it for fear of distracting me. There are far worse things in church that could do that!
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Zappa wrote: »
    Personally I would argue this is generally unnecessary, outside the tropics. An affectation.

    Affectation be damned.

    If the throat is scratchy or the mouth dry a sip of water is a must; not good to screw up a note whether a soloist or not. The climate has bugger-all to do with it. I’ve needed a drink at 40C ( try Xmas in Oz when fully robed) and also when it’s as cold as the proverbial frog’s tit, especially if on the tail end of an URTI.

    Certainly the need to hydrate gets greater with age as the mouth dries out more readily. And there is always somwhere to conceal a 500 ml bottle.

  • BlaiseinLondonBlaiseinLondon Shipmate Posts: 24
    Priest here. I would far prefer a choir member to be comfortable than to be in that horrible situation of desperately trying to contain a cough (which always results in later explosions, ime!). I also sometimes need a drink during a service. The bottles that I've found most useful are those with a built-in straw - they enable one to be fairly discreet.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I am often glad of the opportunity to take a sip of water during a service.

    My secular choirs do not allow water on the platform in a concert, which is a great struggle for me.

    I recently attended an informal summer concert where the choir were given rehydration breaks whilst their conductor talked about the next set of pieces.

    What I do hate is the clanking of metal bottles when they get knocked.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Priest here. I would far prefer a choir member to be comfortable than to be in that horrible situation of desperately trying to contain a cough (which always results in later explosions, ime!).
    Or endless throat-clearing.

    Puzzler wrote: »
    What I do hate is the clanking of metal bottles when they get knocked.
    Which is one reason the water bottles that have been provided for our choir are plastic.

  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    A-bloody-men
  • Priest here. I would far prefer a choir member to be comfortable than to be in that horrible situation of desperately trying to contain a cough (which always results in later explosions, ime!). I also sometimes need a drink during a service. The bottles that I've found most useful are those with a built-in straw - they enable one to be fairly discreet.

    A sensible and charitable approach.

    I've once or twice been to a service where the priest had a glass of water discreetly placed on the altar, as well as one in the pulpit or near the lectern. Given the amount of speaking a priest might have to do during a 'normal' Eucharist, this can hardly be seen as unreasonable.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    I'd say that nowadays it's completely common for choir members to have and use water bottles. Of course, discretion is always appropriate. Considering some of the things young parents bring into the pews for their children to eat, drink, and do (toys), a random, occasionally witnessed water bottle is the least of distractions, LOL.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Considering eucharist was originally a meal, having water for the table seems reasonable.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    As several other people have said, if you want the choir to sing without coughing you'd better let them have water. Especially if you want to use incense in the service. We're not robots.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    A lady in a choir I used to sing in had a rather cleverly discreet water bottle, plastic with a built-in straw (which I think doubled as a closing mechanism). As I recall, it was almost small enough (maybe about 250ml) to fit in a big cassock pocket.

    As it also fitted neatly in the book slot, it was easy enough to sneak a swig unnoticed.
  • People do all kinds of things. I've seen members of the congregation walk in with a large cup of coffee, and sip their coffee throughout the service. I wouldn't do that.

    If you need to sip water to maintain your voice, do it discreetly, and I don't see a problem. I don't think you need to go to the extent of wearing a Camelbak under a cassock, though.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Often times, with a previous pastor, he would get all choked up in the middle of a sermon--and he did not have any water nearby.

    Current pastor always has a water bottle nearby.

    So much better.

    If pastors need water,

    Not surprised choir members also need water.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Zappa wrote: »
    Personally I would argue this is generally unnecessary, outside the tropics. An affectation.

    Did the recent multiple heatwaves in Western Europe pass you by? Preventing heatstroke is not an affectation.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    People do all kinds of things. I've seen members of the congregation walk in with a large cup of coffee, and sip their coffee throughout the service. I wouldn't do that.

    If you need to sip water to maintain your voice, do it discreetly, and I don't see a problem. I don't think you need to go to the extent of wearing a Camelbak under a cassock, though.

    Why is coffee a problem? It's normal for students to have a hot drink with them during a university lecture, and a church service would seem to me to be a similar environment. Obviously be careful of soft furnishings etc but I don't see why a coffee is offensive.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    If I were a drinking person, I may have just had something a little stronger than water, or coffee.
  • @Gramps49 I'll drink to that 🤣
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    As a warden, I often had to finish the wine left in the chalice; the last part of the service was often more enjoyable than the first.
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    It seems to me that this naturally leads to discussing whether members of the congregation may have water bottles.
  • DardaDarda Shipmate
    A few weeks back, in our southern England heat wave, one of the congregation fainted from heat / dehydration. Since then it has been announced at the beginning of every service that water is available at the back of the church, and we should feel free to remain seated during hymns, or parts of the liturgy where we normally stand, if that makes us feel more comfortable.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    "For I was hungry, and you gave me food at the pot-luck after confirming that I actually brought a dish to share, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, but told me I had better be discreet about it."
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    As a voice therapist I strongly encourage extra hydration for singers to protect their larynxes. I give similar advice to all heavy voice users such as teachers, politicians and preachers.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    rhubarb wrote: »
    As a voice therapist I strongly encourage extra hydration for singers to protect their larynxes. I give similar advice to all heavy voice users such as teachers, politicians and preachers.

    Care is required, however. I once did a day's teaching with a heavy cold and kept drinking water to help supress the cough and by evening was feeling particularly unwell and had another glass and felt worse before finally realising I'd drunk ~7 litres and was suffering from water intoxication, necessitating a visit to the GP who struggled to keep a straight face as I babbled semi-coherently and he told me to stick to under 2 litres the following day.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    edited August 6
    Speaking as a singer, having water on hand can definitely be useful. It will generally be in a metal water bottle, which will generally be kicked over on the stone flags at the quietest moment of the service (or concert) causing a deafening noise and general embarrassment. It's just going to happen.
    Conversely, if the drink is in a cup on mug, that will be kicked over coating the floor in water.
    We live in an imperfect world.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    HarryCH wrote: »
    It seems to me that this naturally leads to discussing whether members of the congregation may have water bottles.

    I can't imagine any circumstance in which the congregation shouldn't have water bottles, unless they were proposing either to throw them during the sermon or empty them over the person next to them singing flat. We've all thought it.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    If I were a drinking person, I may have just had something a little stronger than water, or coffee.
    Confession time: I’ve mentioned that we have small, uniform (navy blue with the church logo on them) water bottles for our choir. We got them maybe two or three years ago.

    Before that, and after Covid, our choir director suggested we each bring a water bottle of our own that we could keep at the church. At the time, I had a few water bottles, but they all had wide mouths. Fine for a hike, when you don’t care if some spills down your chin, not great for church.

    So I looked for a narrow-mouthed water bottle that could be my choir water bottle. To my mischievous delight, I found that Nalgene makes a reusable, 10 oz. flask. Yes, it could slip in my pocket.

    I admit I thoroughly enjoyed how every time I used it, I saw at least one eyebrow raised, which was almost always followed by stifled laughter on the part of the eyebrow raiser. :lol:


  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    HelenEva: My point is that if the congregation may have water bottles, then the choir should certainly be allowed to do so.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    The soprano in chapel choir having a swig out of the gin flask during "That we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life" remains a highlight of my University music career.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    In this day and age, and with our knowledge of physiology, I cannot even fathom why a thread such as this one is required.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    HarryCH wrote: »
    HelenEva: My point is that if the congregation may have water bottles, then the choir should certainly be allowed to do so.

    Ah - I get you. And I certainly wouldn't ever do without a water bottle while in the choir if I felt I needed one. Small choristers and large quantities of water can be a challenge, but then Christian life is a challenge we all attempt to rise to.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    My conjugation is a traditional one, but nobody would question or even raise an eyebrow at water bottles - or anything else really. We are just glad to be there.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    An old Russian proverb says the devil enters the church through the choir. I believe this was referring to the (un)fortunate habit of choristers sneaking in a bottle of vodka, however, not of water.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    An old Russian proverb says the devil enters the church through the choir. I believe this was referring to the (un)fortunate habit of choristers sneaking in a bottle of vodka, however, not of water.

    The minister at a local church once found after taking a deep swig from his water bottle at the pulpit, that it had been spiked with vodka. By his sister.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    Why is coffee a problem? It's normal for students to have a hot drink with them during a university lecture, and a church service would seem to me to be a similar environment. Obviously be careful of soft furnishings etc but I don't see why a coffee is offensive.

    I'm not a fan of bringing coffee in to lectures either, although I recognize that it's quite common in the age of Starbucks. It feels disrespectful at a gut level, and I'm not sure I've really examined why. I think it's a sign of divided focus: if I'm attending someone's lecture, I owe them the respect of paying attention to what they're saying. If I'm eating my breakfast, then I'm not giving them my full attention.

    I'd bring a drink to a movie theater but not to watch a live performance: I think it feels like the same dynamic.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    Why is coffee a problem? It's normal for students to have a hot drink with them during a university lecture, and a church service would seem to me to be a similar environment. Obviously be careful of soft furnishings etc but I don't see why a coffee is offensive.

    I'm not a fan of bringing coffee in to lectures either, although I recognize that it's quite common in the age of Starbucks. It feels disrespectful at a gut level, and I'm not sure I've really examined why. I think it's a sign of divided focus: if I'm attending someone's lecture, I owe them the respect of paying attention to what they're saying. If I'm eating my breakfast, then I'm not giving them my full attention.

    I'd bring a drink to a movie theater but not to watch a live performance: I think it feels like the same dynamic.

    But why is coffee different to water? I don't think the drink being hot and caffeinated makes a material difference to the level of focus happening. Nobody has mentioned breakfast - a drink isn't a meal. Being at a live performance doesn't make someone less dehydrated than at the cinema.

    Much like with the technology and church thread in Purgatory, please remember that many people will have medical issues which mean they do need to be able to eat and/or drink - although of course people need to be mindful of others. As someone with ADHD I am *more* able to concentrate if I am doing something else at the same time as listening to a sermon or lecture, and drinking a coffee is a lot more discreet than bringing in a wobble cushion or using a fidget toy.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Two differences spring to mind: coffee is both a stimulant and a diuretic. This could lead to problems in church ( especially during a long sermon) with a combination of jitters and the urge to pee.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    Zappa wrote: »
    Personally I would argue this is generally unnecessary, outside the tropics. An affectation.

    Did the recent multiple heatwaves in Western Europe pass you by? Preventing heatstroke is not an affectation.

    They probably did - Zappa lives in Aotearoa/ New Zealand

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Two differences spring to mind: coffee is both a stimulant and a diuretic. This could lead to problems in church ( especially during a long sermon) with a combination of jitters and the urge to pee.

    Double win. A reason for a two minute break from the sermon.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    2 minutes????!!!!!
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited August 8
    For me, the big difference is that coffee smells. It is introducing a sensory element which otherwise would not be there, and is entirely incidental to the occasion. To my mind, anything which is intended to be immersive, which both concerts and worship are, should be very deliberate in excluding non-essential sensory elements. This puts me at odds with many people, but I really can't help that: it is an authentic statement both of my needs, and of what I think is a reasonable approach in these specific instances. Other gatherings, which don't need such immersion for satisfactory engagement, don't need this kind of gatekeeping. It may even be that this isn't needed for certain forms of worship, but it's essential for real prayerful engagement, for me anyway.
  • We Orthodox fast before Communion, although the extent of that varies of course due to individual capacity, health issues etc - and can vary from parish to parish.

    I know of some priests who would say we should abstain from water or any other liquid, providing we have the physical capacity to do so.

    Others don't take that view. Our parish priest doesn't proscribe water and our choir have water bottles which they will use during services as necessary.

    The sky has not fallen in.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Two differences spring to mind: coffee is both a stimulant and a diuretic. This could lead to problems in church ( especially during a long sermon) with a combination of jitters and the urge to pee.

    As someone with ADHD, stimulants such as caffeine already work differently for me and do not give me the jitters - that's the point. For me I find that caffeine improves focus, some others find it calming or even soporific.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    For me, the big difference is that coffee smells. It is introducing a sensory element which otherwise would not be there, and is entirely incidental to the occasion. To my mind, anything which is intended to be immersive, which both concerts and worship are, should be very deliberate in excluding non-essential sensory elements. This puts me at odds with many people, but I really can't help that: it is an authentic statement both of my needs, and of what I think is a reasonable approach in these specific instances. Other gatherings, which don't need such immersion for satisfactory engagement, don't need this kind of gatekeeping. It may even be that this isn't needed for certain forms of worship, but it's essential for real prayerful engagement, for me anyway.

    Incense is a non-essential sensory element. Candles are a non-essential sensory element. Music is a non-essential sensory element.

    I think framing your own sensory preferences as a need is not really fair on others - somebody else's bodily needs are none of your business. I think it's reasonable to expect a distraction-free environment for personal prayer and worship, but corporate prayer and worship requires some tolerance for other people's needs. As an AuDHD person with misophonia, I am well-aware of my own sensory issues and know that ultimately they are my responsibility to care for, including not making it someone else's problem if my sensory issues clash with them existing and doing normal existence things around me. I don't think that someone's coffee smelling distracting to one person is a good enough reason to police what they can drink in a church service when sometimes I can't deal with someone breathing in a distracting way (where I would just remove myself).
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Also as a reminder - in many evangelical churches (often them with countdown timers...) there is coffee and refreshments beforehand and it's totally expected and normal to take them into the service.
  • That is what I meant when I said that it was a matter of being deliberate. There is a cultural consensus in some churches that music, incense and candles are essential elements of their worship practice. There are others where these are deliberately excluded, or at least not the subject of any such consensus, and pre-service refreshments, particular practices re. music, sermons and other things replace them. It would be idle to turn up in one sort of church and attempt to impose the other set of choices. These particular constellations of choices are pre-existing cultural artifacts, and not lists of preferences I am making up or imposing personally.

    I think there is a balance to be struck here. Expecting my entire list of personal preferences to be accommodated is clearly unreasonable, but there is a deep sense of bereavement when they used to be and no longer are, even if there is a good reason behind the change. If there is no good reason, I would act to defend the previous situation, at least to the extent of explaining why the change feels detrimental, and what effect it has on me. Since caffeine is a stimulant and the effect of ADHD on the metabolism of stimulants is well-attested to, your point has validity in that context, though this is one of the few respects in which I am not typical of people with ADHD. However, I would question whether that need necessarily had to be met at that point. As for the point about breathing being triggering, again, it's a matter of discernment. There are some people, occasions, etc., where one is so universally triggered that it is entirely one's own issue, and removing oneself can be the only answer. There are other occasions and contexts where the meeting of needs can be a gift, and one can receive that gift if one states one's needs. I'm still very much getting used to doing that, and can still go too far in either direction, but I think I will always believe that it is a discussion which both can, and should happen.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Sojourner wrote: »
    2 minutes????!!!!!

    I benefit from the faster of the two main anatomic plumbing designs.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    For me, the big difference is that coffee smells. It is introducing a sensory element which otherwise would not be there, and is entirely incidental to the occasion. To my mind, anything which is intended to be immersive, which both concerts and worship are, should be very deliberate in excluding non-essential sensory elements. This puts me at odds with many people, but I really can't help that: it is an authentic statement both of my needs, and of what I think is a reasonable approach in these specific instances. Other gatherings, which don't need such immersion for satisfactory engagement, don't need this kind of gatekeeping. It may even be that this isn't needed for certain forms of worship, but it's essential for real prayerful engagement, for me anyway.

    Incense is a non-essential sensory element. Candles are a non-essential sensory element. Music is a non-essential sensory element.
    Yes, but those things all have roles in the liturgy, and they are used in service of the liturgy. And in certain traditions and contexts, they actually may be essential, or at least expected, for a particular liturgy.

    Coffee brought into the worship space by an individual, by contrast, is completely extraneous to the liturgical action, and could, for some nearby, be a distraction from the liturgy.

    Personally, I would never bring anything into a worship service other than water in a closable container. I would feel both that I’m being disrespectful to and inconsiderate of others around me, and that I was being too casual in my approach to worship.

    But that’s me, and I readily acknowledge it’s an attitude rooted heavily in the cultural expectations and norms of my upbringing. I try—sometimes more successfully, sometimes less—not to impose my expectations on others.


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