Heaven: English language

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  • Eh? "Different to" is surely an abomination anywhere. If A differs from B, then A is different from B. I can't see how "to" ever works.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    Eh? "Different to" is surely an abomination anywhere. If A differs from B, then A is different from B. I can't see how "to" ever works.

    Language isn't logical. "Different to" is probably the most common usage in the UK, at least in my experience.

    Describing people's natural usage as an "abomination" is borderline offensive, frankly. Bugger off; it's what we say.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    HarryCH wrote: »
    I believe you mean "those to whom we are referring".

    The difficulty native English speakers are having coming up with the "correct" form here indicates that the "correct" form is artificial and the final position preposition is actually the form naturally produced by speakers.
  • Indeed. And "different from," as we say over here. We seldom if ever hear "different to" except from our British friends. However, we hear "different than" all too often.

    I rarely hear "different from" from UK, US, or Australian speakers. It's a rare pleasure when I hear it. However, I suspect it's a change I will have to put up with, like "giving" being abandoned for "gifting".

    The American "waiting on" is taking over from "waiting for" in Australia. I'm still just waiting on the platform for a train, though I might be waiting on the train for it to arrive at the next station.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    I cringe when I hear off and of linked together eg He fell off of the horse. To use of is redundant to the sentence and the meaning. Why not just say He fell off the horse?
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    'Different from' is what you say if you was brung up proper, like what I were.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    One word I don't like is "process" (verb with stress on the second syllable), as in "We shall now process to the back of the church". Presumably it's a back-formation from "procession", but I always thought that aqctually dervived from "procede".

    Another huge dislike: "attendee". Surely an attendee is a person who is the object of attention, i.e. attended upon; someone who attends should simply be an "attender".,
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    'Different from' is what you say if you was brung up proper, like what I were.

    And the very common "different than" is just plain wrong.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I rarely hear "different from" from . . . US . . . speakers. It's a rare pleasure when I hear it.
    Really? It’s pretty much all I hear from US speakers, except for the occasional “different than.”
    However, I suspect it's a change I will have to put up with, like "giving" being abandoned for "gifting".
    I’m not a particular fan of “gifting” either, but it does seem worth pointing out that gift as a verb dates from the 16th Century, and doesn’t mean quite the same thing as give. One can give something to someone else without gifting it.

  • I find "different than" interesting, as it may be formed by analogy with comparatives. My old prof, Randolph Quirk, used to talk about syntactic blends, and it may be one.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    One word I don't like is "process" (verb with stress on the second syllable), as in "We shall now process to the back of the church". Presumably it's a back-formation from "procession", but I always thought that aqctually dervived from "procede". <snip>

    A quick Google suggests you’re right about it being a back formation - dating to 1814. The previous verb for that activity (going back to the 1540s) appears to have been ‘procession’. An early example of versing, maybe?
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    I strongy dislike the increasing use of the word 'process' (with stress on the first syllable) to mean the mental activity I would call 'digesting' or 'coming to terms with' an experience or new concept, as in 'I just have to take a moment to process that'. It is pretentious psychobabble, in my opinion.
  • But it sounds so much more scientific and coolly rational than, "Hmm ... Tell you what, I'll have a bit of a think about that"!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    Sparrow wrote: »
    One of my pet peeves is the confusion of "reticent" with "reluctant". I've just heard a prime example on TV this afternoon while watching horse racing. The commentator said that a horse was "reticent " to accelerate. Now as far as I know, horses have not recently gained the power of speech.

    I bet you never watched Mr. Ed. It was an American television comedy about a horse that could talk back in the 60s.



  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Eh? "Different to" is surely an abomination anywhere. If A differs from B, then A is different from B. I can't see how "to" ever works.

    Language isn't logical. "Different to" is probably the most common usage in the UK, at least in my experience.

    Describing people's natural usage as an "abomination" is borderline offensive, frankly. Bugger off; it's what we say.

    "Different from" is more common than "different to" in my UK experience, although I hear both. I'd say that "different from" was correct in a formal register, but "different to" is fairly common in everyday language. "Different than" sounds very American, and to me would sound out of place in any UK use.

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Eh? "Different to" is surely an abomination anywhere. If A differs from B, then A is different from B. I can't see how "to" ever works.

    Language isn't logical. "Different to" is probably the most common usage in the UK, at least in my experience.

    Describing people's natural usage as an "abomination" is borderline offensive, frankly. Bugger off; it's what we say.

    Only borderline? I must try harder. But honestly, 'different to' sounds harsh and unfamiliar to me.

    Here's another weird word: 'Mentee' for one who is mentored. We have a niece who works with manatees in Florida, and I am sure a connection can be worked out if I ask her.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Otoh you do definitely differ from, so perhaps it's picked up the association.
  • Here's another weird word: 'Mentee' for one who is mentored. We have a niece who works with manatees in Florida, and I am sure a connection can be worked out if I ask her.

    It's an obvious back-formation from mentor, via the nonexistent verb "to ment". Used to describe the junior member of a formal mentorship arrangement within a particular workplace, it doesn't have any exact synonyms. Protégé is probably the closest traditional word, but carries quite different implications.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    But it sounds so much more scientific and coolly rational than, "Hmm ... Tell you what, I'll have a bit of a think about that"!

    I find it describes perfectly what my daughter is doing with her daily experiences as a child when she's playing with her dolls later.
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    How about, ' coffee' when referring to one coughed over and 'fusee' for someone who, as regular as clockwork, causes the lights to go out ?
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Eh? "Different to" is surely an abomination anywhere. If A differs from B, then A is different from B. I can't see how "to" ever works.

    Language isn't logical. "Different to" is probably the most common usage in the UK, at least in my experience.

    Describing people's natural usage as an "abomination" is borderline offensive, frankly. Bugger off; it's what we say.

    "Different from" is more common than "different to" in my UK experience, although I hear both. I'd say that "different from" was correct in a formal register, but "different to" is fairly common in everyday language. "Different than" sounds very American, and to me would sound out of place in any UK use.

    Different than is definitely American but it's creeping in amongst da yoof. Ah well, rather that than spray can cheese.
  • Though cognitive processing isn’t pretentious psychobabble to those of us who have cognitive processing issues as a result of mental health challenges, or other disabilities.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    But it sounds so much more scientific and coolly rational than, "Hmm ... Tell you what, I'll have a bit of a think about that"!

    I find it describes perfectly what my daughter is doing with her daily experiences as a child when she's playing with her dolls later.

    Yes, because processing is more than thinking, involving feelings, sensations, etc. Commonly used in therapy, I can't think of an alternative.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I rarely hear "different from" from . . . US . . . speakers. It's a rare pleasure when I hear it.
    Really? It’s pretty much all I hear from US speakers, except for the occasional “different than.”
    However, I suspect it's a change I will have to put up with, like "giving" being abandoned for "gifting".
    I’m not a particular fan of “gifting” either, but it does seem worth pointing out that gift as a verb dates from the 16th Century, and doesn’t mean quite the same thing as give. One can give something to someone else without gifting it.

    Thank you. I give thanks for you every day.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Here's another weird word: 'Mentee' for one who is mentored.

    What word do they use on your island?
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    The American "waiting on" is taking over from "waiting for" in Australia. I'm still just waiting on the platform for a train, though I might be waiting on the train for it to arrive at the next station.

    "Waiting on" is regional in the US. It's primarily Southern, but also common among Black Americans.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    mousethief wrote: »
    The American "waiting on" is taking over from "waiting for" in Australia. I'm still just waiting on the platform for a train, though I might be waiting on the train for it to arrive at the next station.

    "Waiting on" is regional in the US. It's primarily Southern, but also common among Black Americans.
    Yes, “waiting on” seems quite unremarkable to this American Southerner.

  • Eirenist wrote: »
    I strongy dislike the increasing use of the word 'process' (with stress on the first syllable) to mean the mental activity I would call 'digesting' or 'coming to terms with' an experience or new concept, as in 'I just have to take a moment to process that'. It is pretentious psychobabble, in my opinion.

    I think they mean something different.

    If you're "coming to terms with" something, then that thing is immutable, and you are in the process of accepting it (probably reluctantly).

    If you are "processing" something, then you're deciding how to think or feel about it, and quite possibly deciding on an action that you will take in response.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Different than is definitely American but it's creeping in amongst da yoof. Ah well, rather that than spray can cheese.

    I think regardless of whether we are prescriptivists or descriptivists, we can agree that nothing orange that comes out of a squirty can deserves to be described as "cheese".
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    Would it be "coffee" or "coughee"?
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Different than is definitely American but it's creeping in amongst da yoof. Ah well, rather that than spray can cheese.

    I think regardless of whether we are prescriptivists or descriptivists, we can agree that nothing orange that comes out of a squirty can deserves to be described as "cheese".

    I believe it's officially "pasteurized process cheese food". I think "food" might be overstating the case.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    mousethief wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Different than is definitely American but it's creeping in amongst da yoof. Ah well, rather that than spray can cheese.

    I think regardless of whether we are prescriptivists or descriptivists, we can agree that nothing orange that comes out of a squirty can deserves to be described as "cheese".

    I believe it's officially "pasteurized process cheese food". I think "food" might be overstating the case.

    I don't think we're in a position to crow. I have the shame of knowing that there are cheese strings in the fridge. I can only say in my defence that I don't eat the things myself. Child #3 has a .... challenging palate.

    OTOH I can report with relief that no-one in the family will touch Dairylea or any of its imitators. Cheese for people who don't like cheese I call it. Actually, best for people with no sense of taste at all.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I bet you never watched Mr. Ed. It was an American television comedy about a horse that could talk back in the 60s.

    Memories, memories......
    The American "waiting on" is taking over from "waiting for" in Australia. I'm still just waiting on the platform for a train, though I might be waiting on the train for it to arrive at the next station.

    A waiter waits on tables, of course.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    "I'm not waiting on a lady
    I'm just waiting on a friend." — Mick Jagger & Keith Richards, 1981.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    The American "waiting on" is taking over from "waiting for" in Australia. I'm still just waiting on the platform for a train, though I might be waiting on the train for it to arrive at the next station.

    "Waiting on" is regional in the US. It's primarily Southern, but also common among Black Americans.
    Yes, “waiting on” seems quite unremarkable to this American Southerner.

    And where would Charismatics be without "waiting on God for an interpretation"?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    "I'm not waiting on a lady
    I'm just waiting on a friend." — Mick Jagger & Keith Richards, 1981.
    “Yet this abundant issue seemed to me
    But hope of orphans, and unfathered fruit;
    For summer and his pleasures wait on thee, . . . .”—Shakespeare, Sonnet 97

    “Now, good digestion wait on appetite, And health on both!”—Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act 3, Scene 4.

    “The mightier man, the mightier is the thing
    That makes him honoured or begets him hate;
    For greatest scandal waits on greatest state.”—Shakespeare, The Rape of Lucrece

    “Wait on the Lord: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the Lord.”—Psalm 27:14, Authorized Version

    “The eyes of all wait upon thee, O Lord: and thou givest them their meat in due season.”—Psalm 145:15, The Book of Common Prayer

  • mousethief wrote: »
    Here's another weird word: 'Mentee' for one who is mentored.

    What word do they use on your island?

    You'd certainly hear 'mentee' here occasionally, but I think a sentence would usually be constructed to avoid it.

    Somewhat related, I like to imagine that there must be a connection between 'mentor' and 'tormentor'. It probably doesn't exist in the language, but it surely does in practice. I could name a certain minister who I am sure doesn't know the difference.
  • I first heard "wait on" while working one summer in my youth as a short order cook, e.g. a waitress saying, "I'm waiting on an order of biscuits." I hear "wait on" more in the context of someone doing something -- the cook serving up those biscuits, for example. "Wait for," on the other hand, I hear more in the context something that is expected to happen. "I'm waiting for the rain to stop."
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    The customer is waiting for the biscuits (or is awaiting them). Perhaps this is an attempt to distinguish the waitperson from the customer.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    We'd use "wait on" in slightly different ways - "our waiter has 6 tables to wait on" is one; "I'm waiting on that booth to become free is another".
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Here's another weird word: 'Mentee' for one who is mentored.

    What word do they use on your island?

    You'd certainly hear 'mentee' here occasionally, but I think a sentence would usually be constructed to avoid it.

    Somewhat related, I like to imagine that there must be a connection between 'mentor' and 'tormentor'. It probably doesn't exist in the language, but it surely does in practice. I could name a certain minister who I am sure doesn't know the difference.

    "Mentor" comes from The Odyssey: Mentor is Odysseus's old tutor--it's not from some verb "to ment." To call someone's teacher a Mentor is like calling their biographer a Boswell. "Mentee" is an atrocity.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    "I'm not waiting on a lady
    I'm just waiting on a friend." — Mick Jagger & Keith Richards, 1981.

    I think it was on the Concert For Bangladesh album that George Harrison sings "Awaiting on you all" (or is that y'all?).
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    "Mentor" comes from The Odyssey: Mentor is Odysseus's old tutor--it's not from some verb "to ment." To call someone's teacher a Mentor is like calling their biographer a Boswell. "Mentee" is an atrocity.

    Minties on the other hand.....
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    At moments like these…
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Perhaps the heightened need we've felt recently will diminish after the election.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    edited May 2022
    In British standard English waiting for means being ready for something to happen while waiting on means being in attendance on and running errands for. The Shakespeare / AV quotes above are I think the second sense.
    So the waiter may be waiting for the table that they are waiting on to give their order. Or the table may be ready to order and waiting for the waiter that is waiting on them to turn up.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    In British standard English waiting for means being ready for something to happen while waiting on means being in attendance on and running errands for. The Shakespeare / AV quotes above are I think the second sense.
    So the waiter may be waiting for the table that they are waiting on to give their order. Or the table may be ready to order and waiting for the waiter that is waiting on them to turn up.

    So when Mssrs. Jagger and Richards are waiting on a friend, do you mean us to believe they intend to run errands for this friend, rather than that they're hanging out, awaiting their arrival?
  • My Scottish wife regurlarly uses "waiting on" to mean "waiting for" - as in "I'm waiting on the postie to deliver my parcel" or "Dinner's nearly ready, I'm just waiting on the potatoes".

    It's normal usage in her part of the world (Glasgow area) but not in mine (London).
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Processing is something that a machine does. ell, I suppose if you think of the mind as a computer . . .
  • I wonder what words therapists could use, when they talk about processing grief or loss. Thinking is clearly inaccurate.
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