Heaven: English language

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  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    'Queue' prompts a slight tangent. The expression derives, of course, from the French word for 'tail'. In the US, when a blockage occurs on a main road, it causes a 'tailback'. When this happens on a British motorway, an illuminated warning sign reads 'Queue'. In France, though, the equivalent sign reads 'Bouchon' - 'cork' or 'stopper'. I have no idea what the equivalent is in Germany, perhaps such things are not permitted to happen! Can Canadian shipmates tell us what terms are equivalent there, and if there is a variation between Quebec and English-speaking provinces?
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    In the US, when a blockage occurs on a main road, it causes a 'tailback'.

    I've never heard that. "Traffic jam" is what most of us would call it, I think.
  • MooMoo Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    KarlLB wrote: »
    There are harder languages. Icelandic for one, despite being much more closely related to English than Welsh is.

    If it is difficult for a native speaker of language X to learn language Y, it is equally difficult for a native speaker of language Y to learn language X. The problem is the differences and similarities between the two languages.

  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited May 2022
    My granddaughter is two and a half. Her two languages at home are English and Georgian. They are so very different that she never mixes them up and switches from one to the other with ease. I think she’s lucky, at such a young age, to have two such different languages.

    She speaks German at nursery and is doing fine with it. Her parents speak German to each other, but never to her, she calls it ‘Kita language’ (Kita is Kindergarten). When I speak German she laughs and says ‘that’s Kita language Omi’.

    Georgian is a beautiful language visually - ჩემ ტყუპისცალს დღეს დაბადების დღე აქვს,გილოცავ კნუტის ცალო მრავალს დაესწარი მიყვარხარ ძალიან სადაც არ უნდა იყო და რამდენხანსაც არ უნდა გნახო. (Happy birthday, my twin. I will always love you kitten, however long we are apart.)
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    KarlLB wrote: »
    It's no worse than any other language. Only one conjugation, about six irregular verbs, gender only marked in the singular (and then not always), subjunctive only in the written language, no noun declension. The difficult bits are the syntax (VSO word order), all the different words for is (mae, ydy, sy, oes) and unpredictable plurals.

    There are harder languages. Icelandic for one, despite being much more closely related to English than Welsh is.

    I'm sure that's true. My previous Duolingo course was Italian, which is relatively easy especially for someone who already knows a bit of French, as all those Romance language have so many similarities. My issues with Welsh really had more to do with the specific design of the Duolingo course, but that's a rant for the Duolingo thread, not for a thread on English language!

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Moo wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    There are harder languages. Icelandic for one, despite being much more closely related to English than Welsh is.

    If it is difficult for a native speaker of language X to learn language Y, it is equally difficult for a native speaker of language Y to learn language X. The problem is the differences and similarities between the two languages.

    Not necessarily. Icelandic and English are a good example here.

    Icelandic has much the same grammatical structures as English. However, it also has very variable noun declension and verb conjugation paradigms. There is considerable redundancy in Icelandic grammar - it has a VSO word order to indicate subject and object (like English) but also codes that information in marking Nominative and Accusative case on the nouns. It uses a rich set of prepositions to indicate indirect objects and agents and also has Dative and Genitive case endings. It uses subject pronouns and also encodes person in the verbal endings. It has three grammatical genders each with their own set of case endings. And the definite article is also declined, as in German, but has two sets of forms - one which can stand independently and one which is suffixed onto nouns. So a noun's function in Icelandic may be indicated three times - by its position in the sentence, by its case ending and by the case ending of the independent or suffixed definite article.

    It's this redundancy that makes Icelandic more daunting for an English speaker than the other way around because English simply does without that syntactic redundancy. English doesn't mark the past tense for person at all because subject pronouns are mandatory so marking the verb itself isn't needed; it has lost all present tense endings bar 3rd Sing. -s.

    On vocabulary, we're about equal. A good proportion of the English lexicon has Icelandic cognates; where they differ it's mostly English having Norman French loans and Icelandic retaining the Germanic roots.

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    Eirenist wrote: »
    In the US, when a blockage occurs on a main road, it causes a 'tailback'.

    I've never heard that. "Traffic jam" is what most of us would call it, I think.
    I’m another American who’s never heard it. “Tailback” to me is an offensive position in (American) football. Merriam-Webster says the meaning of “a line of vehicles caused by a traffic slowdown or stoppage” is British usage. I’d simply say “cars were backed up.”

  • Trudy wrote: »
    My previous Duolingo course was Italian, which is relatively easy especially for someone who already knows a bit of French, as all those Romance language have so many similarities.
    Aye, there's the rub. I found Italian difficult because it was so different from Spanish, especially regarding accented syllables. I taught Latin, and the similarities between Latin and Spanish helped me learn Spanish.
  • I think "tailback" may be a regionalism. I've heard it maybe three times and always from somebody official speaking traffic-control jargon, and I had to think furiously to figure out what it meant. We usually say "traffic jam" or even "parking lot" ("44's a parking lot this morning").
  • The Long Island Expressway has been called "America's longest parking lot."

    We also say that traffic is backed up. (Again, illogical use of preposition.) Of course, drivers could always back down and use public transportation.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Thanks for the correction, I've come across it in descriptions of traffic in American cities and assummed it was general, and, of course, motoring buffs overhere. But 'Queue' is what it says on warning signs here and I wondered what the equivalent is on traffic warning signs in the US. Presumably not 'parking lot' or 'snarl-up'?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Presumably not 'parking lot' or 'snarl-up'?
    :lol:

    Where I am, the sign would typically say something like “slow moving traffic ahead” or “accident/construction ahead—expect delays.”

  • Well, we can't be honest on public signs, can we? :lol: But here, we usually get bland phrases like "expect slow-downs--find alternate routes." Which everyone mentally translates as "Oh HELL no."
  • Especially when there **is** no alternate route!
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    'Queue' prompts a slight tangent. The expression derives, of course, from the French word for 'tail'. In the US, when a blockage occurs on a main road, it causes a 'tailback'. When this happens on a British motorway, an illuminated warning sign reads 'Queue'. In France, though, the equivalent sign reads 'Bouchon' - 'cork' or 'stopper'. I have no idea what the equivalent is in Germany, perhaps such things are not permitted to happen! Can Canadian shipmates tell us what terms are equivalent there, and if there is a variation between Quebec and English-speaking provinces?

    Several decades ago while learning German, I was amused to hear that German for 'traffic jam' used the same term as for constipation. (I hope I got this right.)
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Trudy wrote: »
    My previous Duolingo course was Italian, which is relatively easy especially for someone who already knows a bit of French, as all those Romance language have so many similarities.
    Aye, there's the rub. I found Italian difficult because it was so different from Spanish, especially regarding accented syllables. I taught Latin, and the similarities between Latin and Spanish helped me learn Spanish.

    I did French and Latin for my school Leaving Certificate. I can read newspapers in Italian - not tried Spanish or Portuguese but probably would get by in them also.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    .
    Especially when there **is** no alternate route!

    Except "get out and walk."
  • mousethief wrote: »
    .
    Especially when there **is** no alternate route!

    Except "get out and walk."

    As a rule, the police get a bit upset with you if you abandon your car in a traffic jam and walk home.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    .
    Especially when there **is** no alternate route!

    Except "get out and walk."

    As a rule, the police get a bit upset with you if you abandon your car in a traffic jam and walk home.

    Snowflakes.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    In France, though, the equivalent sign reads 'Bouchon' - 'cork' or 'stopper'.
    The seaside resort of Quiberon in Brittany is at the end of a long peninsula, along which runs a single-track road. For many years the parallel railway has carried - in summer only - a service called the "Tire-Bouchon". There is no winter service.

    See: https://tinyurl.com/yc2n6vwr

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    'Queue' prompts a slight tangent. The expression derives, of course, from the French word for 'tail'. In the US, when a blockage occurs on a main road, it causes a 'tailback'. When this happens on a British motorway, an illuminated warning sign reads 'Queue'. In France, though, the equivalent sign reads 'Bouchon' - 'cork' or 'stopper'. I have no idea what the equivalent is in Germany, perhaps such things are not permitted to happen! Can Canadian shipmates tell us what terms are equivalent there, and if there is a variation between Quebec and English-speaking provinces?

    Several decades ago while learning German, I was amused to hear that German for 'traffic jam' used the same term as for constipation. (I hope I got this right.)
    Well, as @Amanda B Reckondwyth noted, we’d say that traffic is “backed up,” just as we’d say a clogged drain or toilet is “backed up.” And I’ve often heard “my plumbing is backed up” as way of saying “I’m constipated.”

  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    'Tire-bouchon' translates as 'corkscrew'. In must be quite a ride.
  • Judge for yourself: it's quite a swish train! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnLREKwGMJM

    I thought it literally meant "stopper-remover" - which of course is what a corkscrew does.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    If two vegans have an aggressive disagreement, is it still call a beef ?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    It’s a mock beef, I suspect.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Maybe "a total beet"
  • Does one say to the other, "I have a bone to pick with you!" . . . ?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Pizza bones, perhaps.

  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    But would they rib each other? Do vegans ever feel liverish?
    This is getting silly ......
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    edited May 2022
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    But would they rib each other? Do vegans ever feel liverish?
    Why not? Not all language about anatomy is about eating it.
  • Indeed, eating it can be a pain in the butt.
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    But would they rib each other? Do vegans ever feel liverish?
    Why not? Not all language about anatomy is about eating it.

    Sorry, I was talking tripe. You obviously know your onions!

  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Indeed, eating it can be a pain in the butt.

    a two-fer!
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Did you hear about the Liverpudlian who put a croissant in a bread roll? It was a pain in the butty.

    Thank yew. Here all week.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Firenze wrote: »
    Thank yew. Here all week.
    Don’t ring us… :tongue:
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Firenze wrote: »
    Did you hear about the Liverpudlian who put a croissant in a bread roll? It was a pain in the butty.

    Thank yew. Here all week.

    Total brilliance!!!!!
    Wit, charm, intellect ...
  • Pangolin GuerrePangolin Guerre Shipmate
    edited June 2022
    HarryCH wrote: »
    It's lovely to see someone use the word "queueing", the only word in English (of which I am aware) to contain five consecutive vowels.

    Rousseauian. Or was it Rousseauean? The former, I think. (In relation to the philosopher, not the painter.)
  • Interesting it's Rousseauian when the adjectival form of Shaw is Shavian.
  • HarryCH wrote: »
    It's lovely to see someone use the word "queueing", the only word in English (of which I am aware) to contain five consecutive vowels.

    Rousseauian. Or was it Rousseauean? The former, I think. (In relation to the philosopher, not the painter.)

    Hmm. Do we allow derivatives of Proper Names?
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    It's clear that if we allow proper adjectives, there may be many more, as there are various names ending in "eau". (Example: Cousteau.)

    This calls to mind the word "strengths", which has nine letters and only one vowel.
  • HarryCH wrote: »
    It's lovely to see someone use the word "queueing", the only word in English (of which I am aware) to contain five consecutive vowels.

    Rousseauian. Or was it Rousseauean? The former, I think. (In relation to the philosopher, not the painter.)

    Hmm. Do we allow derivatives of Proper Names?

    You dispute Shakespearean?
  • Because of the Jublee [sic] Mrs RR and I have been plagued with local magazines celebrating and commenting on the events. Reading just some of these has been painful for someone used to editing. Below is just a selection of (to my eyes, pedantic misanthrope that I am) poor English written by journalists who, one supposes, have graduated with some sort of qualification:

    Fulsome
    to mean full, enormity to mean large, ennervating to mean 'exciting' (a bad one, this).
    It's for 'its' was common, as were, adjectives confusedly used as nouns (for example, 'usual' and 'packaged').
    'Iconic' was used so much I wanted to scream and 'very unique' was everywhere. Just once, hilariously, I saw 'stiff' instead of 'stuff' (a typo, this, but it should have been picked up. I will not easily forget the image of someone rummaging through their fathers stiff!).

    'Different to' no longer bothers me (though I still change (not 'correct') this in writing I'm editing).
    None of this is of course very bad - what the writer meant was generally clear - but, as I consigned the magazines to the recycling waste bin, I was profoundly depressed and in no mode to celebrate.
    Mrs RR thinks I'm a miserable old scroat. I correct her; being a Christian, I tell her I'm a Dead sea scroat. According to my grandchildren, I am of similar antiquity.
  • Amen to all the above, especially 'iconic', unless applied to objects of religious veneration.

    Some time ago I felt obliged to write to a university PR official who had invited us to contribute to a fund celebrating a 'notorious' alumnus. Unusually, I received an apologetic reply.
  • Amen to all the above, especially 'iconic', unless applied to objects of religious veneration.

    Definitely "Christ Pantokrator" is an iconic icon.
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