General Collapse of Secondary Education

2

Comments

  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    I've got the opposite problem to @Priscilla's helper today. I mislaid my analogue watch today and while I was out I had to keep using my phone for the time, and muttering to myself. I realised that I seldom read the time on my digital devices, mainly because the digits are so small, whereas I can just glance at an analogue timepiece and know what the time is and how long I have until the bus is due.

    I think it comes to be what you are most familiar with using.
  • I have a smart watch with an analogue face. I would have thought analogue faces are quite popular? You can change the face yourself.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    "The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them".

    (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

    My son talks disparagingly of "Boomers" until he remembers that his Mum (who he loves) is one! I just smile. His turn will come to be old and creaky. 🙂
    Ruth wrote: »
    Except I always knew where the landline was when I had one.

    I always know where my keys are. They have two places where they're allowed, one in my handbag and one on the hook in the kitchen.

    I need to do the same with my phone. I missed an important call yesterday because my phone had been left upstairs. We don't have a landline.

    Re your son becoming old and creaky, this song sprung to mind:

    https://youtu.be/U2kmria5JmU?si=TBOwdHFdylFI_yYw
  • I’ve reached the point where it’s easier just to say “Hey Siri, what time is it?” And then since the phone’s lit up, I glance at the digital time before it can even tell me… 😅
  • ChastMastr wrote: »
    I’ve reached the point where it’s easier just to say “Hey Siri, what time is it?” And then since the phone’s lit up, I glance at the digital time before it can even tell me… 😅

    Try doing that if (like me) you stammer and 'S' can be difficult! See, for example,

    https://stamma.org/your-voice/technology-what-goes-around-comes-around


    I would suggest Siri's best answer would be, "Time you got your own watch you"!
    Blessings ...
  • In my last job the day shift could clock out from 18:25 but I had to stand by the clock at 17:30 to catch those who didn't know the difference between the big hand and the little hand.
  • I spoke to Lord P yesterday and he told me that some of his contemporaries couldn’t read a clock face 😧 - he’s 34.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    That is going to totally bugger up the Folstein mini-mental state exam.
  • My first unprocessed thought when I saw that was to the effect of 34 is awfully young for dementia…

    I’ve always preferred the old-fashioned analog watches and still wear one.
  • We all have our sets of "walking around knowledge." Maybe reading an analogue clock face is fading from that category. I remember the first time I successfully sent a FAX to my parents instead of a letter. Dad had added a FAX machine to his home office. I was still young then, but I do remember feeling just a small bit of relief that I'd been able to decode that technology. Happened again with the Internet and Email.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    Re your son becoming old and creaky, this song sprung to mind:

    https://youtu.be/U2kmria5JmU?si=TBOwdHFdylFI_yYw

    Brill! 😂

  • I remember at some point in the early 90s I was about to spend maybe $40 to courier a two-page letter to Australia at which point my supervisor pointed out to me that there is such a thing as a fax machine. Now of course it would be instantaneous and by email…

    I’m not sure in retrospect why I didn’t just email but probably because our organization didn’t yet have an email address. I’m pretty sure it got one soon afterwards.
  • "The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them".

    (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

    “I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint”. attributed to Hesoid 8BC

    BTW, I remember learning how to read an analog clock when I was in 2nd grade--primary school.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    BTW, I remember learning how to read an analog clock when I was in 2nd grade--primary school.

    I was taught by my parents. I think this was before I started school (so around the age of four).
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    I love an analogue watch. Mine is a Fossil and many years old. The strap has worn out and I can't find a new one to fit anywhere. 😢
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    "The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them".

    (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

    “I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint”. attributed to Hesoid 8BC

    BTW, I remember learning how to read an analog clock when I was in 2nd grade--primary school.
    The first quotation has also been attributed to Socrates, but I can’t find any reliable source showing that either Socrates or Peter the Hermit is responsible for it.

    As for the second, according to Wikiquote
    This quote has been attributed to Hesiod on the internet, and even published with citation as a dubious attribution, but there are no known occurrences of it in his writings.

    These familiar quotations both seem to me to be like Desiderata giving spurious antiquity to a contemporary thought.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    I love an analogue watch. Mine is a Fossil and many years old. The strap has worn out and I can't find a new one to fit anywhere. 😢

    I'm glad you capitalised the F-word. I don't think ammonites or dinosaurs had watches.
  • In my last job the day shift could clock out from 18:25 but I had to stand by the clock at 17:30 to catch those who didn't know the difference between the big hand and the little hand.

    Although my bedside clock has luminous hands, it's not that easy to read in the dark (and my eyesight is poor). Before now I have got up at 4.30 thinking it was 5.25, or similarly for an hour later. (I don't switch on the light as I don't want to wake my wife).
  • Caissa wrote: »
    We still have a landline. Although since I was the last holdout in the house to get a cellphone, the landlines days may be numbered.

    I've kept my landline, being as how I remember the three day week in the UK and the rolling electricity strikes. Everything went off but the phones still worked.
  • Not sure if they will for long though, because the phone lines are all going digital. You can still have a landline but it will effectively work over the internet.
  • My kids did a lot of clock practice in about Year 2 (age 6/7). So it is in the National Curriculum, but if you never quite get it and then don't use it, I imagine the knowledge would fade quickly. My 10-y-o has an analogue watch. My 13-y-o only wears a smart watch, but I'm pretty sure can tell the time on a clock face.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    "The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them".

    (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

    “I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint”. attributed to Hesoid 8BC

    BTW, I remember learning how to read an analog clock when I was in 2nd grade--primary school.
    The first quotation has also been attributed to Socrates, but I can’t find any reliable source showing that either Socrates or Peter the Hermit is responsible for it.

    As for the second, according to Wikiquote
    This quote has been attributed to Hesiod on the internet, and even published with citation as a dubious attribution, but there are no known occurrences of it in his writings.

    These familiar quotations both seem to me to be like Desiderata giving spurious antiquity to a contemporary thought.

    Bro, the first quotation was originally posted by Boogie up thread. Assuming it was from Peter the Hermit (Boogie did say, attributed), I set out to find an even earlier example, in which I also said was attributed to Hesoid, I think the point is you can find similar quotes throughout the generations from time immemorial. I know there were similar quotes about the baby boomers, I have heard some about millennials (who are now in their 40s) and Gen Z. No doubt there will be like comments about Gen Alpha when they get old enough.
  • If you are not familiar with an analogue clock, what does "clockwise" mean to you?
  • Quote Investigator has looked into similar "quotes":

    Misbehaving Children and Rioting Children
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    "The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them".

    (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

    “I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint”. attributed to Hesoid 8BC

    BTW, I remember learning how to read an analog clock when I was in 2nd grade--primary school.
    The first quotation has also been attributed to Socrates, but I can’t find any reliable source showing that either Socrates or Peter the Hermit is responsible for it.

    As for the second, according to Wikiquote
    This quote has been attributed to Hesiod on the internet, and even published with citation as a dubious attribution, but there are no known occurrences of it in his writings.

    These familiar quotations both seem to me to be like Desiderata giving spurious antiquity to a contemporary thought.

    Bro, the first quotation was originally posted by Boogie up thread. Assuming it was from Peter the Hermit (Boogie did say, attributed), I set out to find an even earlier example, in which I also said was attributed to Hesoid, I think the point is you can find similar quotes throughout the generations from time immemorial. I know there were similar quotes about the baby boomers, I have heard some about millennials (who are now in their 40s) and Gen Z. No doubt there will be like comments about Gen Alpha when they get old enough.

    Indeed. I've always been amused by the handle of "the greatest generation", because I just bet their parents moaned because "They'd never put up with what we put up with in the Great War!"
  • Hedgehog wrote: »
    Quote Investigator has looked into similar "quotes":

    Misbehaving Children and Rioting Children

    These trace the quote as a paraphrase of a short section in “Schools of Hellas: an Essay on the Practice and Theory of Ancient Greek Education from 600 to 300 BC” by Kenneth John Freeman, first pubished in 1907 (Freeman died in 1906, at the age of 24).

    Looking at Freeman's work, he is summarizing/paraphrasing what he regards as the common view of several classical authors, whom he quotes: Aristophanes, Isorates, Plato, Hermippus, and Xenophon.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Twangist wrote: »
    Since this thread started I've clocked several of my teenage students wearing proper analogue wristwatches. I presume they can read them...

    I see what you did there.

    Couldn't resist
  • HarryCH wrote: »
    If you are not familiar with an analogue clock, what does "clockwise" mean to you?

    I suppose not much.

    Although to be fair, I always have to think about clockwise - am I supposed to be looking at the clock, or am I supposed to be the clock?
  • RockyRoger wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    I’ve reached the point where it’s easier just to say “Hey Siri, what time is it?” And then since the phone’s lit up, I glance at the digital time before it can even tell me… 😅

    Try doing that if (like me) you stammer and 'S' can be difficult! See, for example,

    https://stamma.org/your-voice/technology-what-goes-around-comes-around


    I would suggest Siri's best answer would be, "Time you got your own watch you"!
    Blessings ...

    Oh, I’ll often screw stuff up and end it with “cancel cancel cancel”…
  • Gill H wrote: »
    I have a smart watch with an analogue face. I would have thought analogue faces are quite popular? You can change the face yourself.

    Me too!


    I reckon about half of teenagers these days struggle with an analogue clock - most can read one but it takes them a while. Those who can read a clock more comfortably tend to grasp concepts like fractions more easily.
  • Martha wrote: »
    Not sure if they will for long though, because the phone lines are all going digital. You can still have a landline but it will effectively work over the internet.

    Brace yourselves for the switch over. In several parts of the country homeowners who have "opted" (been pressured would be more accurate) to have a "digital landline" have found their telephones don't work. A sibling in Gloucestershire and a friend in Norfolk have both found they have no landline for 3 and 4 months respectively. Apparently a software glitch but it doesn't inspire confidence.
  • On the subject of "things the youth of today can't do" when my son went to university it turned out he had no experience of writing a letter.

    He'd been taught to write business letters at school, and I had made him write thank you letters for presents at Christmas and his birthday, but he had never written a general letter.

    It turned out his concept of "a letter" was based on Jane Austen. Hence his sister received a gift with a covering letter which included several odd phrases and ended with I remain, my dear sister, your most affectionate brother, The Loon


  • On the subject of "things the youth of today can't do" when my son went to university it turned out he had no experience of writing a letter.

    He'd been taught to write business letters at school, and I had made him write thank you letters for presents at Christmas and his birthday, but he had never written a general letter.

    It turned out his concept of "a letter" was based on Jane Austen. Hence his sister received a gift with a covering letter which included several odd phrases and ended with I remain, my dear sister, your most affectionate brother, The Loon
    :lol:

    I’m surprised no one has mentioned the ability, or lack thereof, to read cursive. My kids were taught it in school (briefly), but they weren’t required to write in cursive, and they struggle to read it.

    We, on the other hand, were required to write in cursive at school for years. I was so happy when we were told it was no longer required. My cursive these days is totally limited to signing my name.


  • Yes, my son struggles with cursive. As does the bank automatic cheque paying-in machine. The bank machine reads my mother's "1"s as sevens, and there is no way to communicate to a machine that if it was a "7" it would have a wee horizontal line half-way up!
  • How do all the French cheque-reading machines manage then?
  • Presumably they are programmed with different recognition softwear?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Presumably they are programmed with different recognition softwear?

    Which I assume, being French, would be exceedingly chic and fashionable.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    Cursive is still a thing in France. Children are taught to write in cursive from the beginning, and my son's reading book includes words in cursive.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    The Daflings have been taught cursive. They have not however been taught to put lines through their sevens. (I didn't learn that from school - my grandfather taught me.)
  • BroJames wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    "The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them".

    (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

    “I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint”. attributed to Hesoid 8BC

    BTW, I remember learning how to read an analog clock when I was in 2nd grade--primary school.
    The first quotation has also been attributed to Socrates, but I can’t find any reliable source showing that either Socrates or Peter the Hermit is responsible for it.
    It would be somewhat odd for Socrates in particular to complain about dis
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    BroJames wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    "The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them".

    (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

    “I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint”. attributed to Hesoid 8BC

    BTW, I remember learning how to read an analog clock when I was in 2nd grade--primary school.
    The first quotation has also been attributed to Socrates, but I can’t find any reliable source showing that either Socrates or Peter the Hermit is responsible for it.

    As for the second, according to Wikiquote
    This quote has been attributed to Hesiod on the internet, and even published with citation as a dubious attribution, but there are no known occurrences of it in his writings.

    These familiar quotations both seem to me to be like Desiderata giving spurious antiquity to a contemporary thought.

    Bro, the first quotation was originally posted by Boogie up thread. Assuming it was from Peter the Hermit (Boogie did say, attributed), I set out to find an even earlier example, in which I also said was attributed to Hesoid, I think the point is you can find similar quotes throughout the generations from time immemorial.

    My assumption is that if a quote is attributed to Socrates, Lincoln, or some other venerable old worthy, but no specific text is cited, it was concocted by a greeting-card writer on Madison Avenue.
  • "50% of what you read on the internet is made up." Abraham Lincoln
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    The Daflings have been taught cursive. They have not however been taught to put lines through their sevens. (I didn't learn that from school - my grandfather taught me.)

    I cross my 7s. And I feel pretty confident that I've passed that trait on to Rivlet #1.
  • I cross my 7s, as well. I picked it up young from recording chess games. Makes it difficult for a 1 and a 7 to be confused.
  • Yes! Especially if you use a script "1" and it has anything more than the smallest of returns at the top.
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    The Daflings have been taught cursive. They have not however been taught to put lines through their sevens. (I didn't learn that from school - my grandfather taught me.)

    I cross my 7s. And I feel pretty confident that I've passed that trait on to Rivlet #1.
    I cross my 7s too, but I don’t think either of my kids have picked it up.


  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    edited September 2024
    The alarm clock by my bed and both my wristwatches (one everyday one and a posher one that belonged to my mum) are analogue. If I think I'm running late for work, I look up at the town clock as I go past; when I get there, I check the clock on the wall if I need to: both analogue.

    Apart from the clock on the stove, I think the only time I use the clock on an electronic device is when I'm doing what I'm doing at the moment: using the device anyway.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited September 2024
    Yes, my son struggles with cursive. As does the bank automatic cheque paying-in machine. The bank machine reads my mother's "1"s as sevens, and there is no way to communicate to a machine that if it was a "7" it would have a wee horizontal line half-way up!

    I switched to writing French sevens when I was about 11, because I was making errors in maths by confusing 1 and 7. My youngest laughs at me, and keeps asking me why I write numbers with Fs in them.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    edited September 2024
    Are they called French sevens in the UK? I first read of them being used by Soviet era Grandmasters and simply associate them with Europe.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited September 2024
    Learning cursive is largely responsible for my handwriting being barely legible. School mandated it which meant that my non-cursive hand is scruffy because of the years wasted having to do cursive, but fortunately readable most of the time. My cursive is incomprehensible now.

    My children all inherited my inability to master the pen but fortunately schools are less anal about it now and they've been able to print which is at least legible.

    I curse cursive (see what I did there?). It's embarrassing on the rare occasions I have to write something. Cursive that looks more like Arabic or printing that looks like a four year old's - that's your choice.

    Yes, we do all hold a pen correctly.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Primary education in the 1950s involved a lot of writing in cursive. Unfortunately successive teachers had a different idea of what constituted the ideal - so one was for rounded transitions between letters, another for sharp angles.

    First year in secondary I'd evolved an idiosyncratic version with a Greek 'e'. Then the brother and I bought a Teach Yourself book on Italic script. Later I took up calligraphy, speciality late Gothic and Carolingian.

    I sill write IMO a fine Italic hand.
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