Elementary school girl on bicycle hit and killed by school bus

The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
So, this happened just two miles from my house (as the crow flies), and in my home school district. I did not know this child or her family, but she attended the same schools as my own children. There's been a lot of "God must have needed another angel" garbage spewed by a more than a few people I've encountered since the accident. I find that kind of trite wallpapering over a tragedy of this kind abhorrent. Why do people do that?! What's so wrong about railing at this God for something this unspeakable? Why do people insist on running interference for God, or absolving God? Fucking hell.
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Comments

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2024
    It's random tragedies like this (and I'm assuming that it was accidental, whether or not anyone was to blame - that's not always the case, of course, as people are often just in the wrong place at the wrong time) which make me doubt very much whether God/god cares about individuals.

    The sentimental claptrap you mention is, I suppose, a way for some people, at least, to cope with the event.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    So long as they're not saying it to the family they can get through it however works for them.
  • But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    edited October 2024
    So long as they're not saying it to the family they can get through it however works for them.
    "They" aren't having to get through anything. "They" are as far removed from it as you are.

  • But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.

    True, alas.

    No doubt it's all meant kindly, but it's often way over the top, I think.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    So long as they're not saying it to the family they can get through it however works for them.

    "They" aren't having to get through anything. "They" are as far removed from it as you are.

    They're not removed. Neither are you. Shit happening on the other side of the world is not the same as shit happening near home. It's why you were moved to post here. You are having to get through this. So are others in your community.
  • I’m so sorry, @The_Riv. That’s just horrible. How are your children? Even if they didn’t know the girl, that just has to be a lot to deal with, for them and for the whole school.

    I’m horrified by the “God must have needed another angel” garbage. (I’ve never, that I can recall, heard it from someone in a church I was part of; it seems, at least in my experience, to arise in certain Christian traditions I’m not part of. But I have encountered it.) I typically hear it as either a coping strategy or attempt to understand—this is the only way I can make sense of this in the wider framework I see the world in—or as something they think will comfort the parents. (And to be fair, I’ve known of parents whom it did comfort, because it was a coping strategy/explanation that made sense to them.)

    I think it’s horrible theology and problematic in many ways, but people don’t generally react logically to grief and tragedy, at least not at first.



  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    My sister still remembers with anger being told right after her twin died that God needed another angel.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2024
    Ruth wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    So long as they're not saying it to the family they can get through it however works for them.

    "They" aren't having to get through anything. "They" are as far removed from it as you are.

    They're not removed. Neither are you. Shit happening on the other side of the world is not the same as shit happening near home. It's why you were moved to post here. You are having to get through this. So are others in your community.

    Yes, and railing against god/the general random awfulness of the universe, or whatever, is an equally legitimate way of coping.

    That said, it's best to be very careful and sensitive (if possible) towards those immediately affected.

    I've noticed a phrase cropping up in films, often when a character is referring to someone who has just died, and says to the spouse *I'm sorry for your loss.* Is this in common use? It depends on how it's said, and in what tone, but it's simple and direct. More could obviously be added, if appropriate, and if the person affected wants it.

  • But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.

    Indeed. Would it not be better to share a profound theological truth in these circumstances? When unspeakable harm comes, why can the faithful offer nothing more substantial?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.

    Indeed. Would it not be better to share a profound theological truth in these circumstances? When unspeakable harm comes, why can the faithful offer nothing more substantial?

    Like what? What theological truth would you offer to the bereaved parents?
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.

    Indeed. Would it not be better to share a profound theological truth in these circumstances? When unspeakable harm comes, why can the faithful offer nothing more substantial?

    The faithful, however moved by charity, cannot honestly offer certainty, though.

    What profound theological truth can be offered when something awful, like this, happens?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 2024
    The_Riv wrote: »
    But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.

    Indeed. Would it not be better to share a profound theological truth in these circumstances? When unspeakable harm comes, why can the faithful offer nothing more substantial?
    Indeed. And in my experience, nothing, at least in those first days, beats simple presence. Words, if needed, should be limited to variations of “I’m so sorry.” It seems to me that presence is part and parcel of “God with us.”

    I am reminded of the quote from Paul Claudel: “Jesus did not come to explain away suffering or remove it. He came to fill it with His presence.”



  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.

    Indeed. Would it not be better to share a profound theological truth in these circumstances? When unspeakable harm comes, why can the faithful offer nothing more substantial?
    Indeed. And in my experience, nothing, at least in those first days, beats simple presence. Words, if needed, should be limited to variations of “I’m so sorry.” It seems to me that presence is part and parcel of “God with us.”

    I am reminded of the quote from Paul Claudel: “Jesus did not come to explain away suffering or remove it. He came to fill it with His presence.”



    This. Just being there is sometimes enough, for the moment, anyway.

    The less actually said, the better, perhaps.
  • My kids are fine, @Nick Tamen -- they're both young adults. Thanks, though.
    Ruth wrote: »
    Like what? What theological truth would you offer to the bereaved parents?

    Hell if I know. I don't count myself among the faithful any more, and part of the reason why is because there doesn't seem to be a more profound theological truth for these kinds of issues. All I know is when they happen there seems to be reduction to the inane.
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Indeed. And in my experience, nothing, at least in those first days, beats simple presence. Words, if needed, should be limited to variations of “I’m so sorry.” It seems to me that presence is part and parcel of “God with us.”

    I am reminded of the quote from Paul Claudel: “Jesus did not come to explain away suffering or remove it. He came to fill it with His presence.”

    I understand offering our own human presence, even silently. I've done that. I do that. My struggle in these instances is that no sufficient explanation, especially for the faithful, is available to them.
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    My kids are fine, @Nick Tamen -- they're both young adults. Thanks, though.
    Ruth wrote: »
    Like what? What theological truth would you offer to the bereaved parents?

    Hell if I know. I don't count myself among the faithful any more, and part of the reason why is because there doesn't seem to be a more profound theological truth for these kinds of issues. All I know is when they happen there seems to be reduction to the inane.
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Indeed. And in my experience, nothing, at least in those first days, beats simple presence. Words, if needed, should be limited to variations of “I’m so sorry.” It seems to me that presence is part and parcel of “God with us.”

    I am reminded of the quote from Paul Claudel: “Jesus did not come to explain away suffering or remove it. He came to fill it with His presence.”

    I understand offering our own human presence, even silently. I've done that. I do that. My struggle in these instances is that no sufficient explanation, especially for the faithful, is available to them.
    I’m glad your kids are okay. I think I assumed they were younger, so sorry if I misread or assumed.

    This may sound odd coming from someone who practiced law for 35 years, but for me, answers that matter don’t come from explanations that anyone provides. They come from experiences and relationships. They are something wrestled with, explored, meditated on and lived into rather than explained or analyzed. They take time. For me, “I’m here for you” is infinitely more valuable than any attempt to provide a sufficient explanation.

    As I said, that’s me. That’s how my brain and my personality are wired. I definitely don't assume everyone else is wired that way.


  • I appreciate that, @Nick Tamen, and I'm glad to have it articulated so well. I'm sure I expect too much from faith and religion, which is weird, because when I had them, I don't think I did (expect very much). I still half-expect much on behalf of others who are among the faithful. Maybe that's weird. And I'm frustrated that for something as gutting and horriffic as having a child killed, and violently, there's little to no help from what should be able to provide it most readily and most thoroughly. I dunno.
  • It's random tragedies like this (and I'm assuming that it was accidental, whether or not anyone was to blame - that's not always the case, of course, as people are often just in the wrong place at the wrong time) which make me doubt very much whether God/god cares about individuals.

    The sentimental claptrap you mention is, I suppose, a way for some people, at least, to cope with the event.

    As an aside you’re not a million miles away (IIRC) from a tragic and generally forgotten mass accidental killing of school children?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillingham_bus_disaster#:~:text=The Gillingham bus disaster occurred,aged between nine and thirteen.
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.

    Indeed. Would it not be better to share a profound theological truth in these circumstances? When unspeakable harm comes, why can the faithful offer nothing more substantial?

    The faithful, however moved by charity, cannot honestly offer certainty, though.

    What profound theological truth can be offered when something awful, like this, happens?

    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    BUT...

    It's not something I would say to a random victim of bereavement, unless I knew they shared the underlying worldview. And, even then, I'd be careful about just dropping it into the condolences willy-nilly.

    (I'll also say I don't really care for schlocky, sentimental portrayals of children as angels, but I do know people who are moved by that sorta thing, and would probably respond well to the line.)
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    The_Riv wrote: »
    I appreciate that, @Nick Tamen, and I'm glad to have it articulated so well. I'm sure I expect too much from faith and religion, which is weird, because when I had them, I don't think I did (expect very much). I still half-expect much on behalf of others who are among the faithful. Maybe that's weird. And I'm frustrated that for something as gutting and horriffic as having a child killed, and violently, there's little to no help from what should be able to provide it most readily and most thoroughly. I dunno.

    Sometimes I think God may ask us to comfort those who grieve without talking about anything important to us, even God. If someone who is grieving wants to bring up faith, I'd talk, but not otherwise. I do not pretend to be confident or skilled with such work, but I definitely approach it thinking to let the one who is the most hurt lead.
  • It's random tragedies like this (and I'm assuming that it was accidental, whether or not anyone was to blame - that's not always the case, of course, as people are often just in the wrong place at the wrong time) which make me doubt very much whether God/god cares about individuals.

    The sentimental claptrap you mention is, I suppose, a way for some people, at least, to cope with the event.

    As an aside you’re not a million miles away (IIRC) from a tragic and generally forgotten mass accidental killing of school children?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillingham_bus_disaster#:~:text=The Gillingham bus disaster occurred,aged between nine and thirteen.

    Yes, you're right.

    When I was with the Ambulance Service, we had a regular patient (by then quite elderly) whose son was one of the youngsters killed. Another of our regulars had worked for the same Company (as had his wife), and they both knew the driver and conductress involved.

    It's not entirely forgotten - there's a memorial plaque on the Dockyard wall, at the site, and it does usually get an anniversary mention in the local press.
  • Gwai wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    I appreciate that, @Nick Tamen, and I'm glad to have it articulated so well. I'm sure I expect too much from faith and religion, which is weird, because when I had them, I don't think I did (expect very much). I still half-expect much on behalf of others who are among the faithful. Maybe that's weird. And I'm frustrated that for something as gutting and horriffic as having a child killed, and violently, there's little to no help from what should be able to provide it most readily and most thoroughly. I dunno.

    Sometimes I think God may ask us to comfort those who grieve without talking about anything important to us, even God. If someone who is grieving wants to bring up faith, I'd talk, but not otherwise. I do not pretend to be confident or skilled with such work, but I definitely approach it thinking to let the one who is the most hurt lead.

    A thoughtful and sensitive way of dealing with such an issue.
  • It's random tragedies like this (and I'm assuming that it was accidental, whether or not anyone was to blame - that's not always the case, of course, as people are often just in the wrong place at the wrong time) which make me doubt very much whether God/god cares about individuals.

    The sentimental claptrap you mention is, I suppose, a way for some people, at least, to cope with the event.

    As an aside you’re not a million miles away (IIRC) from a tragic and generally forgotten mass accidental killing of school children?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillingham_bus_disaster#:~:text=The Gillingham bus disaster occurred,aged between nine and thirteen.

    Yes, you're right.

    When I was with the Ambulance Service, we had a regular patient (by then quite elderly) whose son was one of the youngsters killed. Another of our regulars had worked for the same Company (as had his wife), and they both knew the driver and conductress involved.

    It's not entirely forgotten - there's a memorial plaque on the Dockyard wall, at the site, and it does usually get an anniversary mention in the local press.

    I thought/hoped it would still be a thing locally, but such things fade from national consciousness.

    As a child visiting my grandparents in the 1980s it was a regular day out to go over the road and ‘see the Lanfranc boys’ - but outside Croydon who remembers them?
  • I sat down in the gutter with a heroin addict and wept with him. Least I could do. And most.
  • It's random tragedies like this (and I'm assuming that it was accidental, whether or not anyone was to blame - that's not always the case, of course, as people are often just in the wrong place at the wrong time) which make me doubt very much whether God/god cares about individuals.

    The sentimental claptrap you mention is, I suppose, a way for some people, at least, to cope with the event.

    As an aside you’re not a million miles away (IIRC) from a tragic and generally forgotten mass accidental killing of school children?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillingham_bus_disaster#:~:text=The Gillingham bus disaster occurred,aged between nine and thirteen.

    Yes, you're right.

    When I was with the Ambulance Service, we had a regular patient (by then quite elderly) whose son was one of the youngsters killed. Another of our regulars had worked for the same Company (as had his wife), and they both knew the driver and conductress involved.

    It's not entirely forgotten - there's a memorial plaque on the Dockyard wall, at the site, and it does usually get an anniversary mention in the local press.

    I thought/hoped it would still be a thing locally, but such things fade from national consciousness.

    As a child visiting my grandparents in the 1980s it was a regular day out to go over the road and ‘see the Lanfranc boys’ - but outside Croydon who remembers them?

    Which wasn’t completely mad - my uncle had been at school (that school) with them.
  • When my cousins were murdered, there were those who said "God wanted another voice in the heavenly choir". It disgusted me. Yeah, God wanted a 12 year old's voice in the choir so much he caused her father to fall mad with despair so that he killed his wife and own child. Yeah, some "loving God" that would be. More like a monster, or Satan.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    I sat down in the gutter with a heroin addict and wept with him. Least I could do. And most.

    That's probably what Jesus would have done.
  • stetson wrote: »
    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    Or it could be theological nonsense.

    Angels aren't dead people. You don't die and then get issued a pair of wings and a harp.
  • stetson wrote: »
    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    Or it could be theological nonsense.

    Angels aren't dead people. You don't die and then get issued a pair of wings and a harp.

    You mean it's nonsense because people don't become angels specifically, OR it's nonsense because people don't survive death in any way at all?
  • In my family’s experience it doesn’t matter if people are Christian or not, what they usually want is someone to be there. And so that’s what we do, as human beings we’re there—holding hands, listening, praying, bringing casseroles, washing dishes... It's what Jesus did too, with Lazarus, before doing the bit no one but him could do, and raising the man. And the older I get, the more I see God's presence with us as ... not a wholly inadequate substitute for something else we REALLY want (the dead raised, a child given, an opportunity regained) but instead, really what it's all about.

    But then, it's taken me 50 years to get to this point. And I'm just starting to see it this way. So YMMV and almost certainly will.
  • I wonder if this idea of *being there* is behind the vogue (not the right word, but I hope you see what I mean) for peaceful, and often almost spontaneous, Vigils at or near the site of horrible accidents, or (as in Southport UK earlier this year) the site of inexplicable murders.

    These Vigils often seem to be made up of a very wide cross-section of the local community, including faith groups of all sorts. I guess they give people an opportunity to show collective solidarity, sympathy, and support for those affected by whatever has happened.

    I find the images of these Vigils very moving.
  • a good thought.
  • stetson wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    But it's often said publicly, i.e. on sympathy cards left at the scene, on broadcast and social media. The family will surely see that.

    Indeed. Would it not be better to share a profound theological truth in these circumstances? When unspeakable harm comes, why can the faithful offer nothing more substantial?

    The faithful, however moved by charity, cannot honestly offer certainty, though.

    What profound theological truth can be offered when something awful, like this, happens?

    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    BUT...

    It's not something I would say to a random victim of bereavement, unless I knew they shared the underlying worldview. And, even then, I'd be careful about just dropping it into the condolences willy-nilly.

    (I'll also say I don't really care for schlocky, sentimental portrayals of children as angels, but I do know people who are moved by that sorta thing, and would probably respond well to the line.)

    Plus the whole “angels aren’t dead people” thing, too.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    I sat down in the gutter with a heroin addict and wept with him. Least I could do. And most.

    🕯🕯🕯
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    When my cousins were murdered, there were those who said "God wanted another voice in the heavenly choir". It disgusted me. Yeah, God wanted a 12 year old's voice in the choir so much he caused her father to fall mad with despair so that he killed his wife and own child. Yeah, some "loving God" that would be. More like a monster, or Satan.

    🕯🕯🕯
  • stetson wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    Or it could be theological nonsense.

    Angels aren't dead people. You don't die and then get issued a pair of wings and a harp.

    You mean it's nonsense because people don't become angels specifically, OR it's nonsense because people don't survive death in any way at all?

    People do not become angels.
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Why do people do that?! What's so wrong about railing at this God for something this unspeakable? Why do people insist on running interference for God, or absolving God? Fucking hell.

    A friend recently shared a quote with me which talked about walking a knife's edge between a number of pairs of opposites, of which I found the most striking: Righteousness and Empathy. It keeps striking a month later. And it gets precisely to your question.

    I think people are afraid of the appearance, maybe the state, of unrighteousness by giving an appropriate, passionate, empathetic, human response.

    Jesus wept over his dear friend's death that Christians believe he could have prevented, and believe that he knew he would remedy. Our best model responded with empathy and passionate grief -- as he was preparing to raise his friend from the dead. I don't understand why people are afraid to follow his lead.
  • Reading through this reminds me of the story of Job. Remember he lost his whole family too. Job went into a real funk. He got to the point he wanted to put G-d on trial. For him, he concluded if G-d is good, he is not G-d. If G-d is G-d, he is not good.

    Then too, there is the book: When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Rabbi Kushner. Kushner concluded while G-d may be benevolent he is not all powerful in preventing tragic things from happening.

    I would hope the parents of this girl has strong support from caring people. People who do not spew the crap about needing another angel in heaven. One of the psalms I used in funerals concerning people dearly loved is Psalm 116, especially the line Precious in the eyes of God is the death of those he dearly loves. I firmly believe God is grieving with the girls parents. They need someone who can share in that grief.

    The sudden death of a child if very traumatic. Often, the parents end up divorcing and they may never find wholeness again.

    Huffington Post had a good article on how people can help parents who are grieving the loss of a child. Maybe you can be that agent @The_Riv
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited October 2024
    stetson wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    Or it could be theological nonsense.

    Angels aren't dead people. You don't die and then get issued a pair of wings and a harp.

    You mean it's nonsense because people don't become angels specifically, OR it's nonsense because people don't survive death in any way at all?

    People do not become angels.

    In your particular belief system, there are many forms of folk religion and a lot of people in fact believe they do.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Reading through this reminds me of the story of Job. Remember he lost his whole family too. Job went into a real funk. He got to the point he wanted to put G-d on trial. For him, he concluded if G-d is good, he is not G-d. If G-d is G-d, he is not good.

    Job is a miserable example, IMO, because God is a supreme asshole. He lets Job go through holy hell just to win a bet with Satan. That's fucked up. And then he justifies himself to Job with chest-thumping, "I'm big God man, you puny human person, you shut up." If I believed in God, I would say that this story was written by an enemy of God to make him look bad. Because he looks really really bad.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited October 2024
    mousethief wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Reading through this reminds me of the story of Job. Remember he lost his whole family too. Job went into a real funk. He got to the point he wanted to put G-d on trial. For him, he concluded if G-d is good, he is not G-d. If G-d is G-d, he is not good.

    Job is a miserable example, IMO, because God is a supreme asshole. He lets Job go through holy hell just to win a bet with Satan. That's fucked up. And then he justifies himself to Job with chest-thumping, "I'm big God man, you puny human person, you shut up." If I believed in God, I would say that this story was written by an enemy of God to make him look bad. Because he looks really really bad.

    God above it's nice to hear someone actually say that. Job's only redeeming feature is challenging the "you must deserve your suffering in some way", and its modern form "everything happens for a reason" narratives.

  • stetson wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    Or it could be theological nonsense.

    Angels aren't dead people. You don't die and then get issued a pair of wings and a harp.

    You mean it's nonsense because people don't become angels specifically, OR it's nonsense because people don't survive death in any way at all?

    People do not become angels.

    Thanks.

    And, you're right, people don't become angels. But the charge of unreality applies to any comprehensible statement you can make about the afterlife, since the afterlife is outside space and time, but we say things like "He's now with the Lord", which implies a relationship with God that's bound by space and time.
  • People also say, "There's a new star in the sky".
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Reading through this reminds me of the story of Job. Remember he lost his whole family too. Job went into a real funk. He got to the point he wanted to put G-d on trial. For him, he concluded if G-d is good, he is not G-d. If G-d is G-d, he is not good.

    Job is a miserable example, IMO, because God is a supreme asshole. He lets Job go through holy hell just to win a bet with Satan. That's fucked up. And then he justifies himself to Job with chest-thumping, "I'm big God man, you puny human person, you shut up." If I believed in God, I would say that this story was written by an enemy of God to make him look bad. Because he looks really really bad.

    It's a story FFS and probably one of the earliest in the Bible. I don't get from it what you do. It's wonderful poetry and not to be taken as theology. But it is a warning not to be a 'Job Comforter' and offer glib explanation for the world's horrors.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    People also say, "There's a new star in the sky".

    "A new pimple on the nose of the Great Pixie!"
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    Or it could be theological nonsense.

    Angels aren't dead people. You don't die and then get issued a pair of wings and a harp.

    You mean it's nonsense because people don't become angels specifically, OR it's nonsense because people don't survive death in any way at all?

    Or angels aren't dead people.
  • IIRC, Scripture makes it clear that angels are not people, dead or otherwise, but a separate order of beings.

    Whether one believes this or not is another matter altogether...
  • I think people do know that folk who die don't become stars ... it's (to my mind rather twee) a wee of saying, "They won't be forgotten".
  • stetson wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    I might argue that "God wanted another angel in Heaven" is, in fact, rooted in a profound theological truth, ie. the deceased is still part of God's universe, and is now re-united with God, and you can eventually be re-united with her in the afterlife.

    Or it could be theological nonsense.

    Angels aren't dead people. You don't die and then get issued a pair of wings and a harp.

    You mean it's nonsense because people don't become angels specifically, OR it's nonsense because people don't survive death in any way at all?

    People do not become angels.
    In your particular belief system, there are many forms of folk religion and a lot of people in fact believe they do.
    Indeed. The idea of those who die becoming angels may not be orthodox Christianity, but it’s definitely found in folk Christianity and popular culture.

    Am I the only one who grew up on The Littlest Angel? (My mother loved the book, though she also found ways to point out to us that people who die don’t really become angels.)


  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Huffington Post had a good article on how people can help parents who are grieving the loss of a child. Maybe you can be that agent @The_Riv

    It's a nice thought, but I don't know how people in their circumstance would feel about a complete stranger attempting that. If I'm honest, and it were me, I wouldn't want it -- at. all.
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Reading through this reminds me of the story of Job. Remember he lost his whole family too. Job went into a real funk. He got to the point he wanted to put G-d on trial. For him, he concluded if G-d is good, he is not G-d. If G-d is G-d, he is not good.

    Then too, there is the book: When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Rabbi Kushner. Kushner concluded while G-d may be benevolent he is not all powerful in preventing tragic things from happening.

    Went into a real funk? Love that understatement there. Job's assessment of G-d, to quote the move My Cousin Vinny, is "dead-on, balls accurate. And as far as Rabbi Kushner goes, my take is that if G-d is not all-powerful, he isn't G-d. And I have no use for a demigod.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2024
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Reading through this reminds me of the story of Job. Remember he lost his whole family too. Job went into a real funk. He got to the point he wanted to put G-d on trial. For him, he concluded if G-d is good, he is not G-d. If G-d is G-d, he is not good.

    Job is a miserable example, IMO, because God is a supreme asshole. He lets Job go through holy hell just to win a bet with Satan. That's fucked up. And then he justifies himself to Job with chest-thumping, "I'm big God man, you puny human person, you shut up." If I believed in God, I would say that this story was written by an enemy of God to make him look bad. Because he looks really really bad.

    It's a story FFS and probably one of the earliest in the Bible. I don't get from it what you do. It's wonderful poetry and not to be taken as theology. But it is a warning not to be a 'Job Comforter' and offer glib explanation for the world's horrors.

    Yes, I think you're right - it's NOT orthodox theology...although quite which god/God it's supposed to picture is pleasingly ambiguous.

    As poetry, and as a warning not to be glib, it's spot on.
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