Donald ******* Trump

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  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    The last time America had a mad king was 1820. What goes round comes round ...

    I don't know anything about George lll - did he have weird, rich sycophants too?
  • /tangent alert/

    The Wikipedia article is worth reading:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III

    From that article, some information on his mental health:

    In the later part of his life, George had recurrent and eventually permanent mental illness. The exact nature of the mental illness is not known definitively, but historians and medical experts have suggested that his symptoms and behaviour traits were consistent with either bipolar disorder or porphyria.

    He makes a cameo appearance in Thomas Hardy's novel The Trumpet-Major, where he comforts the heroine as she watches her lover's ship sail off to fight the French. This incident is based on known instances of the King walking about incognito and chatting to people...

    /end of tangent/
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    When the USSR dissolved, the nukes were initially held by four of the new nations where they were placed - Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Those from Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan were all returned to Russia to be dismantled, with those nations being the only nuclear powers to disarm.

    I think you're forgetting South Africa.

    It should be noted that although Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan had physical possession of a number of ICBMs when the Soviet Union fell apart, the launch codes were always solely in the hands of the successor Russian government. I'm not sure if a country possessing a bunch of nuclear weapons that they don't have the means to use qualifies them as "nuclear powers".
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Apparently George III wanted to take a more conciliatory line with the Colonies, but was overruled by his ministers, who being eighteenth century nobility were presumably rich and may well have been weird.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Trump's latest rant against Zelenskyy (you know, that evil and unloved comedian-turned-dictator chap, who started an unjust war against poor Russia...) surely proves that the would-be *king* is totally bonkers.

    Not that that is exactly new news to most people, apart from Trumpians and Maganatics.

    How are the Trumpian churches enjoying the enlightened rule of their new Messiah?

    He's "owning the libs" which in Trumpianity is equivalent to a vision of the BVM for Catholics so they're ecstatic.

    Their media has spent years telling them Zelensky is a Nazi taking their cash and putting it in a private bank account so Trump's betrayal pleases them.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    The last time America had a mad king was 1820.

    Who are you refering to?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 20
    Hmm. The fact that Mr Zelenskyy is the son of Jewish parents - and so hardly likely to be a true Nazi - has presumably escaped them, like most other facts.
    :grimace:

    I do most sincerely hope that Trump is not invited to the UK for a State visit, although it would give Sir Sadiq a good excuse to fly the Baby Trumpkin balloon over London once more...
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    stetson wrote: »
    Boogie wrote: »
    The last time America had a mad king was 1820.

    Who are you refering to?

    Sorry - wrong date, right king - George III
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    I've always thought since the last year of his previous presidency that Trump has dementia. Not necessarily Alzheimer's, but maybe Frontal Temporal Lobe or Vascular. If he has I'm expecting that it is going to become impossible to hide sometime in the next year or so.
  • Meanwhile, he rants and raves unchecked...
    :scream:
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Hmm. The fact that Mr Zelenskyy is the son of Jewish parents - and so hardly likely to be a true Nazi - has presumably escaped them, like most other facts.
    :grimace:

    In a Russian pop culture context, a "Nazi" is anyone who is anti-Russian. I've seen interviews with ordinary Russians who seem baffled by the idea that being Jewish would have any relevance to being a Nazi, in their understanding of the term. It would probably be worthwhile examining the Kremlin-to-American-right-wing-media propaganda pipeline a lot more closely than it has been.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Boogie wrote: »
    The last time America had a mad king was 1820.

    Who are you refering to?

    Sorry - wrong date, right king - George III

    Thanks. I thought maybe you meant King Andrew The First, but he had not yet ascended to the throne in 1820.
  • Surely, calling Trump a mad king misses the political issues. He is carrying out traditional roles, trying to garner new territory, using divide and rule against opponents, flattering dictators. I saw a TV film, in which a historian said that Hitler ruled through illusion, but of course, the illusions worked, for a while. Trump's fans probably love the illusions, for how long, who knows.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited February 20
    Surely, calling Trump a mad king misses the political issues. He is carrying out traditional roles, trying to garner new territory, using divide and rule against opponents, flattering dictators. I saw a TV film, in which a historian said that Hitler ruled through illusion, but of course, the illusions worked, for a while. Trump's fans probably love the illusions, for how long, who knows.

    Do you mean that there's a method to Trump's madness? Because I'm actually not convinced of that anymore. I think it's more like there's madness to his method. Some of his long-term goals are probably worthwhile, but his ways of pursuing them are absolutely harebrained, reflecting the outlook of a man who doesn't understand the complexity of the world.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Do you mean that there's a method to Trump's madness? Because I'm actually not convinced of that anymore. I think it's more like there's madness to his method. Some of his long-term goals are probably worthwhile, but his ways of pursuing them are absolutely harebrained, reflecting the outlook of a man who doesn't understand the complexity of the world.

    Kurtz: Are my methods unsound?
    Willard: I don't see any method at all, sir.

    Just out of curiosity, which of Trump's long-term goals do you consider worthwhile?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited February 20
    Crœsos wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    Do you mean that there's a method to Trump's madness? Because I'm actually not convinced of that anymore. I think it's more like there's madness to his method. Some of his long-term goals are probably worthwhile, but his ways of pursuing them are absolutely harebrained, reflecting the outlook of a man who doesn't understand the complexity of the world.

    Kurtz: Are my methods unsound?
    Willard: I don't see any method at all, sir.

    Just out of curiosity, which of Trump's long-term goals do you consider worthwhile?

    Well, I think bringing some modicum of a manufacturing economy back to the USA is an idea at least worth considering, and AFAIK was something advocated by people like Ralph Nader during the fight against NAFTA in the 1990s. But thinking you're gonna accomplish that by imposing huge tariffs on the whole world on a few weeks notice is pretty out-there.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Hmm. The fact that Mr Zelenskyy is the son of Jewish parents - and so hardly likely to be a true Nazi - has presumably escaped them, like most other facts.
    :grimace:

    In a Russian pop culture context, a "Nazi" is anyone who is anti-Russian. I've seen interviews with ordinary Russians who seem baffled by the idea that being Jewish would have any relevance to being a Nazi, in their understanding of the term. It would probably be worthwhile examining the Kremlin-to-American-right-wing-media propaganda pipeline a lot more closely than it has been.
    In Ukrainian culture, a "Nazi" is anti-Ukrainian as well. And, anti-Russian. The experience of Nazi Germany in the Soviet Union was radically different to the experience in the West. And, that informs the very different understanding of the word "Nazi".

    To a large extent in France, Holland, Belgium, and Scandinavia the experience of occupation was by a brutal military but (with some exceptions) largely decent. The exceptions being the treatment of Jews in the occupied territories, and some excesses by the SS. When we think of the evils of Nazi Germany, we immediately think of the gas chambers and Holocaust. On the battlefield the enemy was brutal but largely fair - in most cases prisoners were treated properly, civilians (except Jews) treated as well as could be expected etc.

    In the Soviet Union the experience was very different. The war itself was brutal beyond imagining, the Germans largely had no interest in avoiding civilian casualties, civilians and captured military were treated appallingly with many rounded up for slave labour camps or simply executed on the spot. Being a Jew only made life under German occupation a bit shorter and harder than everyone else. The German assault on the Soviet Union was an existential threat to the very existence of the Slavic peoples. "Nazi" was thus the description for those who wished to obliterate the people of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine (and, if the German advance had got that far Georgia, Kazakhstan etc), with Jews living in these areas being just a subset of those targeted for destruction rather than standing out as particular targets.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Zelenskyy is right. Trump has chosen to live in a world of disinformation. And he has powerful means of persuading his believers that his disinformation is true.

    After the massive TV coverage of the Jan 6th insurrection I would not have believed the Trump’s “alternative facts” would have become so accepted by Republican voters. Yet it has become so.

    The fact that he is reinventing the history of the Russian aggressions re Ukraine should come as no surprise. Tell the same lie consistently and with conviction and loyal minds get changed.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Zelenskyy is right. Trump has chosen to live in a world of disinformation. And he has powerful means of persuading his believers that his disinformation is true.

    After the massive TV coverage of the Jan 6th insurrection I would not have believed the Trump’s “alternative facts” would have become so accepted by Republican voters. Yet it has become so.

    The fact that he is reinventing the history of the Russian aggressions re Ukraine should come as no surprise. Tell the same lie consistently and with conviction and loyal minds get changed.

    For example:
    Trump Says Zelenskyy Slept Through a Meeting With Scott Bessent. Photos Say Otherwise

    U.S. President Donald Trump claimed that his Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, was met with “rude treatment” during his visit to Kyiv last week. Speaking aboard Air Force One, Trump alleged that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy was unavailable for a meeting because he was “asleep,” CNN reported on February 20.

    “Scott Bessent actually went there and was treated rather rudely, because essentially, they told him no and Zelenskyy was sleeping and unavailable to meet him. He traveled many hours on the train, which is a dangerous trip, and we’re talking about the secretary of the Treasury. He went there to get a document signed, and when he got there, he came back empty. They wouldn’t sign the document.,” Trump said.

    Bessent visited Kyiv on February 12 to discuss economic partnership with Ukraine and did, in fact, meet with Zelenskyy.

    <snip>

    This statement comes amid a sequence of other false claims made by President Trump earlier, including saying that Zelenskyy is a “dictator without elections” and that his approval rating had “dropped to 4%.”

    The thing is, a lot of Americans will believe (or pretend to believe) Trump instead of their own lying eyes.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited February 20
    Crœsos

    I doubt whether there is evidence (other than anecdotal) about peer pressure amongst Trump supporters. Within cults in general, the pressure to affirm the truth of what the cult leader says is very real. People are “trained” to keep their dissenting thought to themselves.

    (“Comrade Napoleon is always right.” “I will work harder”. The words of Boxer in “Animal Farm”. And Boxer ended up in the knacker’s yard.)
  • Barnabas62 wrote: »
    (“Comrade Napoleon is always right.” “I will work harder”. The words of Boxer in “Animal Farm”. And Boxer ended up in the knacker’s yard.)

    More prosaically, people tend to view many of their past decisions as a kind of sunk cost.
  • President Zelenskyy seems to be at least the second person to speak truth to power - remember Bishop Budde at Trump's inauguration?

    Zelenskyy is, by any standard, a brave man, albeit caught between a rock and a hard place.
  • 1. Don't forget the long history of Russian anti-semitism.
    2. Or Hitler's 'Commando Order'.
    3. I suspect Starmer's visit to Washington 'at his request' will either be cancelled at short notice, or made ashumiliating as possible;
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Trump is said to be very frustrated with Zelenskyy. More pressure. Zelenskyy was offered the deal of selling away 50% of Ukraine’s mineral deposits in exchange for a vague promise of continuing support. So he said no.

    Trump’s frustration is that Zelenskyy isn’t playing ball with his “art of the deal”.

    So he’s bullying.
  • A Guardian columnist today described Trump as a mentally unwell narcissist, so it's no surprise to hear that he (Trump) doesn't like being thwarted.

    How much longer will the US put up with Trump's behaviour before it becomes impossible to assert that he's fit to be President?

  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited February 20
    /tangent alert/

    The Wikipedia article is worth reading:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III

    From that article, some information on his mental health:

    In the later part of his life, George had recurrent and eventually permanent mental illness. The exact nature of the mental illness is not known definitively, but historians and medical experts have suggested that his symptoms and behaviour traits were consistent with either bipolar disorder or porphyria.

    He makes a cameo appearance in Thomas Hardy's novel The Trumpet-Major, where he comforts the heroine as she watches her lover's ship sail off to fight the French. This incident is based on known instances of the King walking about incognito and chatting to people...

    /end of tangent/
    These days historians tend to think his blue urine was due to taking gentian, a blue flower, as a medication and not from having porphyria. He was probably bipolar. ( I am using George in my history dissertation on mania as an example of the complications of attempting to diagnose mental illness from a historical distance).
  • It seems that by the time his mental health issues became intractable, George III had long since ceased to be King of the American colonies.

    Trump's mental health issues appear to be worsening as his Presidency continues, but perhaps that subject is another elephant in the room, which must on no account be mentioned.
  • I learned a long time ago whenever Drump's lips move, there is a 99% chance he is lying. But that is an old trick li3 often enough and people will believe you or they just won't care.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    It Trump's mental health issues appear to be worsening as his Presidency continues, but perhaps that subject is another elephant in the room, which must on no account be mentioned.

    Claims about Trump being in mental decline usually seem to rely on arguments like "Well, look at all the bizarre stuff he says." But that's always been par for the course with him, and doesn't neccessarily prove clinical illness.

    So far, I haven't seen a lot of evidence based on Trump's speech patterns or physical mannerisms, which usually play a big part in such diagnoses. But I'd curious to know if anyone has noticed anything.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    He seems energised and on a huge ego trip. At his age, it won’t last. Also at his age it’s possible, even likely, that there may be some cognitive deterioration. But that’s a medical matter. His behaviour is pretty much as outrageous as I expected but he foreshadowed it in his election campaign. He will do a lot of damage, and so far as Ukraine and the Middle East are concerned, very possibly lethal damage. But that’s not a sign of mental deterioration.
  • Well, yes - whether he is, or is not, suffering from mental health issues is for the experts to decide.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Meanwhile, US Ukraine envoy Keith Kellogg has described Zelenskyy as an “embattled and courageous leader of a nation at war”. Apparently also Ukraine has made a counter offer on mineral rights which they have described as a “win-win”.

    It’s possible that Zelenskyy’s tough talking may have led to an offer of better terms.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    It could also be that Kellogg will shortly be turfed out by Trump for being a wussy pro-Ukrainian cheese-eating non-surrender monkey.

    In other news CPAC is now too Nazi for National Rally although Farage and Liz Truss were happy to participate.
  • Macron and Staemer are now slammed for not helping to make peace in Ukraine. I hadn't realised they had a say.
    It could also be that Kellogg will shortly be turfed out by Trump for being a wussy pro-Ukrainian cheese-eating non-surrender monkey.

    In other news CPAC is now too Nazi for National Rally although Farage and Liz Truss were happy to participate.

  • Liz Truss is completely bonkers, although Farage seems to have had the sense lately to dumb down his usually fervent support for Trump.
  • Liz Truss is completely bonkers, although Farage seems to have had the sense lately to dumb down his usually fervent support for Trump.

    Frankly I don't give a shit about her motivations; she's playing to the gallery, and she should be treated like the far right outrider she is.
  • Liz Truss is completely bonkers, although Farage seems to have had the sense lately to dumb down his usually fervent support for Trump.

    Frankly I don't give a shit about her motivations; she's playing to the gallery, and she should be treated like the far right outrider she is.

    Indeed she should.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    It seems characteristic of Trump that if he feels thwarted, he will then lash out in another direction. I'm guessing that someone has told him to give a little on the rare mineral deal if he wants a quick win. Losing to a little ex-comedian is more than his ego can stand. But as Kellogg has probably advised, make the win-win rare minerals deal look like a Trump win.

  • Drama and Performance Art prepares a person for elective politics like no other business, so said a former Premier of New Brunswick.

    Ukraine has floated the mineral deal explictly so that the US would have a reason to back up Ukraine. It was meant to be Trump-bait, but President Cheeto got too greedy.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Liz Truss is completely bonkers, although Farage seems to have had the sense lately to dumb down his usually fervent support for Trump.
    I listened to Trump's big speech last night. He was full of praise for his friend Nigel Farage. He also informed us that he had been told that he was the greatest president ever. Washington was in second place. He would not win any prizes for modesty.
  • He might be in line for first prize as Delusional Extraordinaire.

    Be very afraid….
  • Trump's great deal over Ukraine's resources appears to have a major flaw. He may get 50% for now, but what prevents Putin marching in 2-3 years from now nd ta
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Trump's great deal over Ukraine's resources appears to have a major flaw. He may get 50% for now, but what prevents Putin marching in 2-3 years from now nd ta

    *...nd ta...*
    - and taking it all back, do you mean?

    Good question, to which the answer is probably Nothing.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Maybe that's what Trump *wants*. All these criticisms assume that Trump doesn't want Russia to absorb Ukraine. I would suggest that the evidence suggests he does and therefore his policy is well-matched to his goal.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited February 23
    I think he wants to be aligned with the winner, if he were convinced siding with Ukraine would make him look better he’d do it. So if Europe can persuade him Ukraine can win, fast enough - and he’d look like a hero - he’ll back them.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Possibly. But I think he distinctly prefers Putin-style autocracy. The message to Europe at the moment is "I don't think you are worth defending"whereas that to Russia is "I respect you".
  • Yes, I meant 'taking the lot'. Trump doesn't want to be found with the losers, smong who he no doubt counts Macron and Starmer. In 1940, he would no have been pressing Churchill to do a deal wth Hitler.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Trump's great deal over Ukraine's resources appears to have a major flaw. He may get 50% for now, but what prevents Putin marching in 2-3 years from now nd ta

    The other major flaw is that a lot of the mineral resources in question are in parts of Ukraine currently under Russian occupation. The odds that Vladimir Putin would honor an agreement between Ukraine and the United States to which he was not a party are quite low indeed.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Well this is interesting:
    Donald Trump was recruited by KGB with codename 'Krasnov', claims ex-Soviet spy

    Donald Trump was recruited by the KGB in 1987 and given the codename "Krasnov", claims a former Soviet intelligence officer.

    The bombshell allegation was made by Alnur Mussayev, a former Kazakh intelligence chief, in a Facebook post, reports the Mirror. The 71-year-old, who previously headed Kazakhstan’s National Security Committee, said he had served in the 6th Directorate of the KGB in Moscow, which was responsible for counter-intelligence support within the economy.

    One of the directorate’s primary objectives, he claimed, was “recruiting businessmen from capitalist countries.” According to Mussayev, Trump, then a 40-year-old New York real estate developer, was one of those recruits. "In 1987, our directorate recruited Donald Trump under the pseudonym Krasnov,” he wrote.

    So you may be thinking that there have been rumors to this effect about agent Krasnov Donald Trump for years, no one has ever been able to definitively prove anything, and the Mirror isn't exactly a paragon of journalistic standards. And you'd be right! The story itself isn't what's interesting. What's interesting is that no large or mid-sized American media outlet is willing to make any comment on this story, not even a "this is what some British tabloid says" sort of comment. This would seem to run counter to "Cokie's law", which is an American media standard that as long as a story is "out there" you're obligated to comment on it and treat it as at least provisionally true.
  • The bombshell allegation was made by Alnur Mussayev, a former Kazakh intelligence chief, in a Facebook post,

    I think it has already been established on another thread that Facebook posts cannot be verified.
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