And interesting that baseball caps are apparently such a novelty in the UK that they would be identified with a particular regional culture. I think they're commonplace enough in North America that most people probably wouldn't attach much signifying import to them, though they're likely still thought of as blue-collar garb.
They’re not thought of as blue collar garb in my part of North America. The only significance at all that anyone might attach to a baseball cap is what a logo and/or colors might tell you about the wearer—college or pro sports loyalty, a favorite vacation spot, etc.
@betjemaniac
<snip>"Big estates of houses" is, I assume, something along the lines of what North Americans call "McMansions". <snip>
Not quite. I think it’s probably more like the suburban ‘tract housing’ satirised in the ‘Little boxes’ song.
So, basically just postwar suburbia.
But I don't think a North American would describe standard tract housing as "big estates of houses". More like just "suburban neighbourhoods full of houses".
In a British context, "big estates of houses" would put me in mind of something like the community portrayed in the Danny Boyle movie Millions(different region, I know). But there might be a simple terminological issue here.
An ‘estate’ is just a housing development - can be in local authority ownership ‘council estate’ or private but either way totally normal language - ‘they’re from off the estate’, ‘which estate do you live on?’ Etc
So, if a city buys some adjacent farmland, announces they're gonna have new housing there, and then some developers come in and build a few homes for private sale, that's sufficient to be defined as an estate?
@betjemaniac
<snip>"Big estates of houses" is, I assume, something along the lines of what North Americans call "McMansions". <snip>
Not quite. I think it’s probably more like the suburban ‘tract housing’ satirised in the ‘Little boxes’ song.
So, basically just postwar suburbia.
But I don't think a North American would describe standard tract housing as "big estates of houses". More like just "suburban neighbourhoods full of houses".
In a British context, "big estates of houses" would put me in mind of something like the community portrayed in the Danny Boyle movie Millions(different region, I know). But there might be a simple terminological issue here.
An ‘estate’ is just a housing development - can be in local authority ownership ‘council estate’ or private but either way totally normal language - ‘they’re from off the estate’, ‘which estate do you live on?’ Etc
So, if a city buys some adjacent farmland, announces they're gonna have new housing there, and then some developers come in and build a few homes for private sale, that's sufficient to be defined as an estate?
One more - it depends where it is. If it’s 25 houses in a village of 600 people that might be an estate. More normally though it’s bigger than that and a planned area. If you’re building 25 houses on the side of a town of 10,000 people or whatever then that’s just a development. Estates are multiple roads.
And interesting that baseball caps are apparently such a novelty in the UK that they would be identified with a particular regional culture. I think they're commonplace enough in North America that most people probably wouldn't attach much signifying import to them, though they're likely still thought of as blue-collar garb.
They’re not thought of as blue collar garb in my part of North America. The only significance at all that anyone might attach to a baseball cap is what a logo and/or colors might tell you about the wearer—college or pro sports loyalty, a favorite vacation spot, etc.
Maybe "casual" woulda been a better descriptor than "blue collar".
@betjemaniac
<snip>"Big estates of houses" is, I assume, something along the lines of what North Americans call "McMansions". <snip>
Not quite. I think it’s probably more like the suburban ‘tract housing’ satirised in the ‘Little boxes’ song.
So, basically just postwar suburbia.
But I don't think a North American would describe standard tract housing as "big estates of houses". More like just "suburban neighbourhoods full of houses".
In a British context, "big estates of houses" would put me in mind of something like the community portrayed in the Danny Boyle movie Millions(different region, I know). But there might be a simple terminological issue here.
An ‘estate’ is just a housing development - can be in local authority ownership ‘council estate’ or private but either way totally normal language - ‘they’re from off the estate’, ‘which estate do you live on?’ Etc
So, if a city buys some adjacent farmland, announces they're gonna have new housing there, and then some developers come in and build a few homes for private sale, that's sufficient to be defined as an estate?
It would be relatively unusual for the city to buy the farmland. Normally the developer would buy the land on a speculative basis, possibly with existing permission to build houses on it, but also possibly with a view to seeking planning permission to build houses on it.
And interesting that baseball caps are apparently such a novelty in the UK that they would be identified with a particular regional culture. I think they're commonplace enough in North America that most people probably wouldn't attach much signifying import to them, though they're likely still thought of as blue-collar garb.
Baseball isn't particularly well-known or popular here. Football (soccer to you) is the dominant sport. However baseball caps have caught on, including the habit of wearing them backwards.
From what I gathered the "Essex man" stereotype was of a rather uncultured bloke, who wore white socks with suits, drove a Ford Capri* and drank pints of Watney's.
Having said that, my late Beloved noticed, in the early 1990s, that eight of the serving Cathedral organists at the time were from Essex, which was celebrated with a gala recital by all of them in St Paul's Cathedral, to raise funds for the refurbishment of the organ in Chelmsford Cathedral.
* We were at a vintage car rally once where I photographed David standing beside a Capri, and captioned it "Essex Man with his preferred mode of transport".
@betjemaniac
<snip>"Big estates of houses" is, I assume, something along the lines of what North Americans call "McMansions". <snip>
Not quite. I think it’s probably more like the suburban ‘tract housing’ satirised in the ‘Little boxes’ song.
So, basically just postwar suburbia.
But I don't think a North American would describe standard tract housing as "big estates of houses". More like just "suburban neighbourhoods full of houses".
In a British context, "big estates of houses" would put me in mind of something like the community portrayed in the Danny Boyle movie Millions(different region, I know). But there might be a simple terminological issue here.
An ‘estate’ is just a housing development - can be in local authority ownership ‘council estate’ or private but either way totally normal language - ‘they’re from off the estate’, ‘which estate do you live on?’ Etc
So, if a city buys some adjacent farmland, announces they're gonna have new housing there, and then some developers come in and build a few homes for private sale, that's sufficient to be defined as an estate?
It would be relatively unusual for the city to buy the farmland. Normally the developer would buy the land on a speculative basis, possibly with existing permission to build houses on it, but also possibly with a view to seeking planning permission to build houses on it.
Yeah, the city purchasing the land would probably be an unneccesary step in my hypothetical.
My brother in law had a black Ford Capri in the 1980s but we were chavs from Luton. It played Dixie on the horn and the youths on our council estate were always trying to nick it.
My brother in law had a black Ford Capri in the 1980s but we were chavs from Luton. It played Dixie on the horn and the youths on our council estate were always trying to nick it.
You heard those dixie-horns in Alberta as well. I believe they were in imitation of the car driven by the heroes on the TV show Dukes Of Hazzard, the cultural aesthetics of which you can probably guess.
It's part of our remit as hosts to provide resources for people to discuss things - @Doublethink who knows more about it than me has kindly provided links about prejudice towards people from the Fens area which extends into Norfolk
I live in Norwich, and have done for 20 years. Aside from "normal for Norfolk", and the ritual references to Alan Partridge, I don't really think that there is a single, coherent phenomenon which can be called "anti-Norfolk bigotry". Rather, there are a number of tensions which interact with each other and with geographical factors to create a nest of prejudices and more or less unconscious biases.
All of the things Louise has linked to exist around here, though as Norwich is well east of the fens, some of them are peripheral to its life, at least until the park and ride car parks or the Showground acquire unscheduled residents. Also, the effect of UEA in drawing a significant graduate and postgraduate population to live in Norwich and its suburbs, among its graduates working in other enterprises as well as its own employees, is rarely mentioned but significant. There is also the colonisation of the city centre by students, and the spread of cosmopolitan types who would previously have lived in the city centre or its near suburbs (especially in the Golden Triangle) out into nearby villages, turning them into suburbs. There is also a significant number of market towns, with an ambivalent relationship with the only city for miles around, and the villages interacting with both, and adding to the impression of insularity.
The isolation of the whole county from the rest of the country (we have no motorways and only two significant trunk roads - one east/west (the A47) and one north-south (the A11), and it takes an hour to get out of Norfolk in most directions, and to get to the coast from here. Generally speaking, isolation is something of a fact of life, as well as something sought by a significant number of the people who move or sty here. We have to make our own entertainment, as witness the proportion of its cultural offering which happens in the month of the Norfolk and Norwich Festival, which again reduces our in-person exposure to external cultural influences. The internet does reach Norfolk, so the isolation can definitely be exaggerated, but there is a definite texture to life which is different from other places, for better and for worse, and I would nominate that,along with geography, as the source of the perception and experience of prejudice.
That article is a little confusing in regards to what it's talking about. Sometimes it says "prejudice in" the relevant counties, sometimes "prejudice against" them. The former makes it sound like the people in those counties are prejudiced against other groups, but I think the latter is what is actually being talked about.
Comments
So, if a city buys some adjacent farmland, announces they're gonna have new housing there, and then some developers come in and build a few homes for private sale, that's sufficient to be defined as an estate?
essentially if it’s a few hundred houses yes
Maybe "casual" woulda been a better descriptor than "blue collar".
Baseball isn't particularly well-known or popular here. Football (soccer to you) is the dominant sport. However baseball caps have caught on, including the habit of wearing them backwards.
Having said that, my late Beloved noticed, in the early 1990s, that eight of the serving Cathedral organists at the time were from Essex, which was celebrated with a gala recital by all of them in St Paul's Cathedral, to raise funds for the refurbishment of the organ in Chelmsford Cathedral.
* We were at a vintage car rally once where I photographed David standing beside a Capri, and captioned it "Essex Man with his preferred mode of transport".
Yeah, the city purchasing the land would probably be an unneccesary step in my hypothetical.
Er...
You heard those dixie-horns in Alberta as well. I believe they were in imitation of the car driven by the heroes on the TV show Dukes Of Hazzard, the cultural aesthetics of which you can probably guess.
https://www.cambstimes.co.uk/news/22880495.council-leader-nick-clarke-slams-prejudice-cambridgeshires-deprived-wards/
https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/our-vision-for-change/challenging-hate/ - there has been a great presence in East Anglia and the Fens for the better part of 500 years
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/aug/11/politicalnews.uk - mp quoted as late as 2006 describing his own constituents as inbred
https://dro.dur.ac.uk/20412/2/ - historic origins of prejudice toward fenlanders
There's quite a bit to chew on.
Louise
Epiphanies Host
All of the things Louise has linked to exist around here, though as Norwich is well east of the fens, some of them are peripheral to its life, at least until the park and ride car parks or the Showground acquire unscheduled residents. Also, the effect of UEA in drawing a significant graduate and postgraduate population to live in Norwich and its suburbs, among its graduates working in other enterprises as well as its own employees, is rarely mentioned but significant. There is also the colonisation of the city centre by students, and the spread of cosmopolitan types who would previously have lived in the city centre or its near suburbs (especially in the Golden Triangle) out into nearby villages, turning them into suburbs. There is also a significant number of market towns, with an ambivalent relationship with the only city for miles around, and the villages interacting with both, and adding to the impression of insularity.
The isolation of the whole county from the rest of the country (we have no motorways and only two significant trunk roads - one east/west (the A47) and one north-south (the A11), and it takes an hour to get out of Norfolk in most directions, and to get to the coast from here. Generally speaking, isolation is something of a fact of life, as well as something sought by a significant number of the people who move or sty here. We have to make our own entertainment, as witness the proportion of its cultural offering which happens in the month of the Norfolk and Norwich Festival, which again reduces our in-person exposure to external cultural influences. The internet does reach Norfolk, so the isolation can definitely be exaggerated, but there is a definite texture to life which is different from other places, for better and for worse, and I would nominate that,along with geography, as the source of the perception and experience of prejudice.
That article is a little confusing in regards to what it's talking about. Sometimes it says "prejudice in" the relevant counties, sometimes "prejudice against" them. The former makes it sound like the people in those counties are prejudiced against other groups, but I think the latter is what is actually being talked about.
We have McMansions here as well - large to overlarge houses on small blocks of land (well under what used be the standard quarter-acre block).
Sandbanks?