I don’t see how the amendments were substantial,y different - this seems like an argument over semantics, they were calling for an immediate ceasefire.
I agree.
And all three political parties involved are suffering from severe delusions of post-imperial grandeur if they imagine that anybody on either side of the conflict is going to care all that much about the differences between their versions of the resolution, or even take any notice of, yet alone give any credit to, the debates in a Parliament of a small to medium sized island off the north west coast of Europe.
I agree with Enoch. This is largely a matter of internal party politics, influenced by MP's worries about their own and their families' safety in rthe face of threats from pro-Palestinians, and, in the case of Labour, avoiding accusations of anti-Semitism.
I agree with Enoch. This is largely a matter of internal party politics, influenced by MP's worries about their own and their families' safety in rthe face of threats from pro-Palestinians, and, in the case of Labour, avoiding accusations of anti-Semitism.
This gloss sounds like bullshit to me. More likely they're worried about losing their seats if they continue to back genocide, or are too cowardly to admit to their constituents that's what they're doing.
I agree with Enoch. This is largely a matter of internal party politics, influenced by MP's worries about their own and their families' safety in rthe face of threats from pro-Palestinians, and, in the case of Labour, avoiding accusations of anti-Semitism.
This gloss sounds like bullshit to me. More likely they're worried about losing their seats if they continue to back genocide, or are too cowardly to admit to their constituents that's what they're doing.
Plus a generous helping of "How can I screw the other party."
I don’t see how the amendments were substantial,y different - this seems like an argument over semantics, they were calling for an immediate ceasefire.
I agree.
You can read the wording of all three amendments and see that they aren't necessarily equivalent:
If your contention is that neither Labour or Conservatives would have accepted the SNPs wording, then you need to ask yourself why that is.
And all three political parties involved are suffering from severe delusions of post-imperial grandeur if they imagine that anybody on either side of the conflict is going to care all that much about the differences between their versions of the resolution, or even take any notice of, yet alone give any credit to, the debates in a Parliament of a small to medium sized island off the north west coast of Europe.
Like it or not the UK government is currently offering the Israeli state material support including military hardware and use of the RAF base in Cyprus.
Tabling an amendment with less inflammatory language may have looked like the only way to avoid accusations of antisemitism. Starmer could have allowed a free vote, but then all the Labour MPs who voted for the SNP's motion would have been accused of antisemitism and the headlines this morning would have been screaming that he couldn't control his party. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
And the last pathetic shreds of our international reputation are in tatters, but nobody takes us seriously nowadays anyway. 🙄🤬
Maybe Starmer should wake up to the fact that the accusations of anti-semitism for criticising Israel are made in bad faith and should be defied, but ultimately why would he shoot the horse he rode in on?
or even take any notice of, yet alone give any credit to, the debates in a Parliament of a small to medium sized island off the north west coast of Europe.
It's actually big for an island. It's big for a nation. It's just that like most nations it isn't a great power, and it withdrew what influence it had over the great power that it was part of.
Maybe Starmer should wake up to the fact that the accusations of anti-semitism for criticising Israel are made in bad faith and should be defied, but ultimately why would he shoot the horse he rode in on?
Well, yes. That is an absolute can of worms. What about the accusations against Corbyn? There is no way that Starmer will go there. It seems that criticizing Israel is risky now, you might lose your job.
I don’t see how the amendments were substantially different - this seems like an argument over semantics, they were calling for an immediate ceasefire.
That's how it struck me, and a number of reporters/columnists appear to agree.
As to the potential threat to MPs, the Speaker took that seriously, and acted - perhaps unwisely, but with good intent - with the result that a large number of MPs are calling for his resignation. It may well also be true that some MPs were concerned for the safety of their seats...
I'm not sure our ultra-adversarial version of 'democracy' is the best way to go.
This is a good example. Scoring petty party political points is far more important than coming to a consensus that virtually the whole House can support. Though in any case they may as well pass a motion to say the moon is made of sausages for all the good it will do.
It reminds me of my days in Manchester NALGO when long hours were spent in the Central Library Theatre debating what kind of message we should send to General Pinochet of Chile.
We need to be able to call out aggressive governments whoever they are. Atrocities done to a people group and attacks from the like of Hamas don’t excuse their actions. The Israeli government are war mongers. If Labour are scared of calling it out, they need to grow a spine
Though superficially all three motions call for a ceasefire, the words used are significant. There are differences in terms of the nature of the ceasefire, duration and conditions. There are differences in the strength of words chosen to describe the actions of the Israeli government. A motion saying "Please can you stop shooting at people for a few days while a bit of aid is let in so that people don't starve before you have a chance to shoot them" is not the same as a motion saying "You're committing acts that could be interpreted as genocide, stop this, stop all military action and let the international community in to provide aid and help negotiate a permanent solution to 75 years of strife".
Though, I'll agree with the comments that a Parliamentary motion calling for a ceasefire isn't going to create a ceasefire, there's no evidence of the Israeli government at the moment doing anything because other nations ask them to do so. They're ignoring UN resolutions (have been for decades), ignoring the ICJ, they're not going to suddenly listen to the UK Parliament. None of the motions included anything to try and compel the Israeli government into enacting a ceasefire - no threats of cutting supplies of arms to the IDF, nothing about sanctions or boycotts.
I thought the SNP were barged out of the way by Labour, who then proceeded to have their own debate. Whether or not pressure was put on the Speaker by Labour, I don't know. I think he has offered SNP another day.
One of the comical things has been watching Tory hopefuls striding about giving it large, is that still a saying? Yesterday, Mordaunt was dynamically doing nothing, Badenoch has been picking fights, and Liz Truss is declaring that she was sabotaged by the deep state. I don't think she is a contender, but everyone else is, (for Tory leadership).
Liz Truss was so out of her depth as PM. And deluded beyond measure.
It's rather like me saying I should be opening the batting for Lancashire but for a sinister conspiracy against me. The difference between us, I suppose, is that I am conscious of my limitations and know I am not fit to go in at No 11 for the Dog and Duck.
Tories had their faults back in the day, but I don't recall thinking that the likes of Thatcher were deluded. Mistaken, perhaps, when judged by my opinion, but not deluded.
Liz Truss was so out of her depth as PM. And deluded beyond measure.
It's rather like me saying I should be opening the batting for Lancashire but for a sinister conspiracy against me. The difference between us, I suppose, is that I am conscious of my limitations and know I am not fit to go in at No 11 for the Dog and Duck.
Tories had their faults back in the day, but I don't recall thinking that the likes of Thatcher were deluded. Mistaken, perhaps, when judged by my opinion, but not deluded.
Indeed.
The Mad Lettuce (along with Niggle the Garbage) has been in the US of A, which beleaguered country really does NOT need the likes of them:
Are we required to let them back in, do you think? Doesn't wee Garridge have dual nationality and can therefore have his UK citizenship yoinked on a whim?
Well, I'd hate to leave them dumped on America's doorstep, but maybe there's another place they could be sent to?
Somewhere in Africa, perhaps? Otherwise, I'd suggest St Helena, but the wallpaper might not be to their liking...
Eh, they can't be any worse than what America already has. I can't think of anywhere in Africa that deserves them (even if their governments might *cough*Uganda*cough*). There's always Russia, of course.
The SNP have a good case to be upset. It was their chance under Parliamentary convention to table a motion and seek to influence the UK policy in an area of their choice. And, that motion was not debated or voted on, with a Labour version debated and voted on instead. Does anyone expect Labour to give one of their Opposition debate slots to the SNP so that they can have something debated and voted on?
The SNP motion was substantially identical to what was passed in the Scottish Parliament three months ago, though some changes to reflect the ongoing genocide in Gaza (even if they avoided saying the IDF are engaging in genocidal acts).
Not quite correct. The Labour amendment was debated but not voted on. Deputy Speaker Dame Rosalie Winterton ( Labour MP) either did not hear or ignored the chorus of 'No" s from the benches and passed the amendment without a vote.
The Mad Lettuce (along with Niggle the Garbage) has been in the US of A, which beleaguered country really does NOT need the likes of them:
I think that comparatively (and even absolutely) there's a lot more money for wingnut welfare over in the US, with any number of fossil fuel funded think tanks and obscure 'Centers for Public Research'
Douglas Carswell traded the South Coast for Jackson Mississippi following an afterlife in UKIP.
My condolences to the people of Jackson, Mississippi.
Indeed, although one is tempted to speculate on why Carswell went to Jackson...
Because there was a think tank based there willing to offer him the position of President and CEO. Your own "Institute for Global Change" is the ultimate aspiration, but those are rarefied circles.
Whilst The Mad Lettuce and Niggle the Garbage are wasting oxygen in the US by peddling their conspiracy theories, back in the UK our very own Thirty-Pee Lee is doing the same:
Mind you, a byelection in his constituency would doubtless produce an interesting result, given that some of the residents are as deranged as he is...one of them was reported as saying that executing e.g. murderers was too quick and easy, and that the guilty should be tortured on a regular basis...
O depraved new world, that hath such people in it!
Fuck me sideways with a prickly cucumber - that's open racism.
They don't even think they need to hide it now, do they?
Make no mistake; while Anderson is stupid/brash enough to say it openly, this is a path made straight by the actions of both parties over the last while, as well as large parts of the media both 'quality' and otherwise.
One thing worth bearing in mind whenever 'violence against politicians' is mentioned; Khan is one of the few non-national politicians to get 24/7 police protection, specifically due to credible threats sent his way.
A Conservative source said: “Lee was simply making the point that the mayor, in his capacity as PCC for London, has abjectly failed to get a grip on the appalling Islamist marches we have seen in London recently.”
I assume those have been the marches by people from all religious backgrounds and none calling for something as "appalling" as one nation not slaughtering the women and children of another nation that they've illegally occupied by military force. Next thing we'll know, the Tories will be calling the people of Ukraine terrorist extremists for fighting against the occupation of part of their nation by Russia. And, I hate to think what they'd have to say about the people of many nations in Europe who took up arms to fight against occupation by the Wehrmacht between 1939-45.
[
Next thing we'll know, the Tories will be calling the people of Ukraine terrorist extremists for fighting against the occupation of part of their nation by Russia.
They won't because this is all just cover for racism.
Whilst The Mad Lettuce and Niggle the Garbage are wasting oxygen in the US by peddling their conspiracy theories, back in the UK our very own Thirty-Pee Lee is doing the same:
Mind you, a byelection in his constituency would doubtless produce an interesting result, given that some of the residents are as deranged as he is...one of them was reported as saying that executing e.g. murderers was too quick and easy, and that the guilty should be tortured on a regular basis...
O depraved new world, that hath such people in it!
That was a different Black Mirror episode (Also incredibly brilliant).
It seems that the Tories watch dystopias for ideas, not as warnings. I think that indicates - if nothing else - how really stupid they are.
[
Next thing we'll know, the Tories will be calling the people of Ukraine terrorist extremists for fighting against the occupation of part of their nation by Russia.
They won't because this is all just cover for racism.
They're cynically using Islamophobia and the crisis in Gaza to win the London Mayoral election. And of course setting some Labour=Islamicist=Antisemitic groundwork.
This during a time where there is a rise in both Islamophobic and antisemitic attacks. In a culture where the Mayor of London has to have 24 hour police protection because of threats motivated by his race and religion.
They're cynically using Islamophobia and the crisis in Gaza to win the London Mayoral election. And of course setting some Labour=Islamicist=Antisemitic groundwork.
And a previous PM is over in the US claiming that a 'Radical Islamic Party' may win in Rochdale:
Galloway? Good gods - he's as mad as The Lettuce...
But fortunately a lot further from power. Given the choices of a disgraced Blairite, a sex pest and a tory Galloway may be the least-worst option for the good folk of Rochdale.
Whilst The Mad Lettuce and Niggle the Garbage are wasting oxygen in the US by peddling their conspiracy theories, back in the UK our very own Thirty-Pee Lee is doing the same:
Mind you, a byelection in his constituency would doubtless produce an interesting result, given that some of the residents are as deranged as he is...one of them was reported as saying that executing e.g. murderers was too quick and easy, and that the guilty should be tortured on a regular basis...
O depraved new world, that hath such people in it!
No, I will not be contributing to the Guardian.
Khan is in charge of the Police in London and they are failing to do their job properly.
It's news to me that any politician has operational control over the Police.
My understanding was that it was universally regarded as a Bad Thing.
The relationship between Police Authorities and the actual Constabulary has always been a bit of a mystery to me. But it does not approach the control councils have over (say) libraries or parks and cemeteries.
Whilst The Mad Lettuce and Niggle the Garbage are wasting oxygen in the US by peddling their conspiracy theories, back in the UK our very own Thirty-Pee Lee is doing the same:
Mind you, a byelection in his constituency would doubtless produce an interesting result, given that some of the residents are as deranged as he is...one of them was reported as saying that executing e.g. murderers was too quick and easy, and that the guilty should be tortured on a regular basis...
O depraved new world, that hath such people in it!
No, I will not be contributing to the Guardian.
Khan is in charge of the Police in London and they are failing to do their job properly.
That the Met is shit is not a new phenomenon (as, if you'd read further in the Guardian, you'd know Doreen Lawrence has highlighted once again) so can't reasonably be blamed on Khan. Even if he were to blame, the gaping chasm between that and being under Islamist control is one that would require NASA or one of its contractors to leap across.
Galloway? Good gods - he's as mad as The Lettuce...
But fortunately a lot further from power. Given the choices of a disgraced Blairite, a sex pest and a tory Galloway may be the least-worst option for the good folk of Rochdale.
Perhaps, but I still feel sorry for Rochdale. I've never been there, but I hear it's a not unattractive town in many ways. It used to have some splendid Corporation buses, decked out in a lovely blue and ivory livery up till the 60s...
Well, it's some surprise to me to find that @Telforddoesn't spring to the defence of the Police, even with the Met's shitty record.
In what way @Telford are the Police in London not doing their job properly, in your expert opinion?
I don't have an expert opinion about policing in the 3rd millennium and I have never worked in London.
However, it's obvious to me that they appear to be scared to always enforce Public Order laws. I appreciate that they do not want to make a situation worse but I think they could do better.
Comments
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1759938708826935443
I don't necessarily endorse every argument there but the intent of the wording is significantly different.
And all three political parties involved are suffering from severe delusions of post-imperial grandeur if they imagine that anybody on either side of the conflict is going to care all that much about the differences between their versions of the resolution, or even take any notice of, yet alone give any credit to, the debates in a Parliament of a small to medium sized island off the north west coast of Europe.
This gloss sounds like bullshit to me. More likely they're worried about losing their seats if they continue to back genocide, or are too cowardly to admit to their constituents that's what they're doing.
Plus a generous helping of "How can I screw the other party."
You can read the wording of all three amendments and see that they aren't necessarily equivalent:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24134333.read-snps-gaza-ceasefire-motion-labours-amendment---full/
If your contention is that neither Labour or Conservatives would have accepted the SNPs wording, then you need to ask yourself why that is.
Like it or not the UK government is currently offering the Israeli state material support including military hardware and use of the RAF base in Cyprus.
And the last pathetic shreds of our international reputation are in tatters, but nobody takes us seriously nowadays anyway. 🙄🤬
Well, yes. That is an absolute can of worms. What about the accusations against Corbyn? There is no way that Starmer will go there. It seems that criticizing Israel is risky now, you might lose your job.
That's how it struck me, and a number of reporters/columnists appear to agree.
As to the potential threat to MPs, the Speaker took that seriously, and acted - perhaps unwisely, but with good intent - with the result that a large number of MPs are calling for his resignation. It may well also be true that some MPs were concerned for the safety of their seats...
Meanwhile, the babies continue to die.
This is a good example. Scoring petty party political points is far more important than coming to a consensus that virtually the whole House can support. Though in any case they may as well pass a motion to say the moon is made of sausages for all the good it will do.
It reminds me of my days in Manchester NALGO when long hours were spent in the Central Library Theatre debating what kind of message we should send to General Pinochet of Chile.
Though, I'll agree with the comments that a Parliamentary motion calling for a ceasefire isn't going to create a ceasefire, there's no evidence of the Israeli government at the moment doing anything because other nations ask them to do so. They're ignoring UN resolutions (have been for decades), ignoring the ICJ, they're not going to suddenly listen to the UK Parliament. None of the motions included anything to try and compel the Israeli government into enacting a ceasefire - no threats of cutting supplies of arms to the IDF, nothing about sanctions or boycotts.
Should be UK Parliament calls for a ceasefire on (whatever terms.)
🎭🎭
Maybe the real tragedy is the fact that, apparently, no-one - not even World-Beating Global Britain™ can do anything to stop the slaughter.
It's rather like me saying I should be opening the batting for Lancashire but for a sinister conspiracy against me. The difference between us, I suppose, is that I am conscious of my limitations and know I am not fit to go in at No 11 for the Dog and Duck.
Tories had their faults back in the day, but I don't recall thinking that the likes of Thatcher were deluded. Mistaken, perhaps, when judged by my opinion, but not deluded.
Indeed.
The Mad Lettuce (along with Niggle the Garbage) has been in the US of A, which beleaguered country really does NOT need the likes of them:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/liz-truss-cpac-us-trans-activists-b2500326.html
Quite why these two are still allowed out to roam this unhappy world, I know not.
Somewhere in Africa, perhaps? Otherwise, I'd suggest St Helena, but the wallpaper might not be to their liking...
Eh, they can't be any worse than what America already has. I can't think of anywhere in Africa that deserves them (even if their governments might *cough*Uganda*cough*). There's always Russia, of course.
Not quite correct. The Labour amendment was debated but not voted on. Deputy Speaker Dame Rosalie Winterton ( Labour MP) either did not hear or ignored the chorus of 'No" s from the benches and passed the amendment without a vote.
I think that comparatively (and even absolutely) there's a lot more money for wingnut welfare over in the US, with any number of fossil fuel funded think tanks and obscure 'Centers for Public Research'
Douglas Carswell traded the South Coast for Jackson Mississippi following an afterlife in UKIP.
Indeed, although one is tempted to speculate on why Carswell went to Jackson...
I'm gonna mess around
Yeah, I'm goin' to Jackson
Look out Jackson town.'
Because there was a think tank based there willing to offer him the position of President and CEO. Your own "Institute for Global Change" is the ultimate aspiration, but those are rarefied circles.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/23/tory-mp-lee-anderson-claims-islamists-have-got-control-of-sadiq-khan
Mind you, a byelection in his constituency would doubtless produce an interesting result, given that some of the residents are as deranged as he is...one of them was reported as saying that executing e.g. murderers was too quick and easy, and that the guilty should be tortured on a regular basis...
O depraved new world, that hath such people in it!
They don't even think they need to hide it now, do they?
(IRONY)
Open racism, certainly. Time for Wishi-Washi to give Thirty-Pee Lee the Order of the Boot, but he won't.
Make no mistake; while Anderson is stupid/brash enough to say it openly, this is a path made straight by the actions of both parties over the last while, as well as large parts of the media both 'quality' and otherwise.
One thing worth bearing in mind whenever 'violence against politicians' is mentioned; Khan is one of the few non-national politicians to get 24/7 police protection, specifically due to credible threats sent his way.
They won't because this is all just cover for racism.
It's time The Mad Lettuce was dumped on the midden, too - but the swivel-eyed loons are too strong, it seems, for poor old Wishi-Washi Sun*k...
That was a different Black Mirror episode (Also incredibly brilliant).
It seems that the Tories watch dystopias for ideas, not as warnings. I think that indicates - if nothing else - how really stupid they are.
30p Lee is not alone.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66990999
She has form, this one:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66820979
They're cynically using Islamophobia and the crisis in Gaza to win the London Mayoral election. And of course setting some Labour=Islamicist=Antisemitic groundwork.
This during a time where there is a rise in both Islamophobic and antisemitic attacks. In a culture where the Mayor of London has to have 24 hour police protection because of threats motivated by his race and religion.
The Tories are utterly beyond contempt.
And a previous PM is over in the US claiming that a 'Radical Islamic Party' may win in Rochdale:
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1761069708759929223
[Galloway is many things but a Radical Islamist isn't one of them]
But fortunately a lot further from power. Given the choices of a disgraced Blairite, a sex pest and a tory Galloway may be the least-worst option for the good folk of Rochdale.
No, I will not be contributing to the Guardian.
Khan is in charge of the Police in London and they are failing to do their job properly.
My understanding was that it was universally regarded as a Bad Thing.
The relationship between Police Authorities and the actual Constabulary has always been a bit of a mystery to me. But it does not approach the control councils have over (say) libraries or parks and cemeteries.
That the Met is shit is not a new phenomenon (as, if you'd read further in the Guardian, you'd know Doreen Lawrence has highlighted once again) so can't reasonably be blamed on Khan. Even if he were to blame, the gaping chasm between that and being under Islamist control is one that would require NASA or one of its contractors to leap across.
In what way @Telford are the Police in London not doing their job properly, in your expert opinion?
Be careful how you reply, though...this is a difficult subject, and perhaps could lead this thread down a rabbit-hole.
Perhaps, but I still feel sorry for Rochdale. I've never been there, but I hear it's a not unattractive town in many ways. It used to have some splendid Corporation buses, decked out in a lovely blue and ivory livery up till the 60s...
I see Thirty-Pee has been relieved of the tory whip, which may, of course, be just what he wants...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/24/lee-anderson-stripped-of-tory-whip-over-sadiq-khan-comment
However, it's obvious to me that they appear to be scared to always enforce Public Order laws. I appreciate that they do not want to make a situation worse but I think they could do better.
Meanwhile, the Evil Plotter (Mr Khan) is not impressed by Wishi-Washi Sun*k (but who is impressed?):
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/24/lee-anderson-is-pouring-fuel-on-fire-of-anti-muslim-hatred-says-sadiq-khan
(BTW, I thought the Guardian was NOT behind a paywall. I apologise if I'm wrong).
It isn't. It makes a point of it.