Funerals

I have been playing at a number of them lately, or to be more precise, requiems. Several thoughts arise that shipmates might like to comment on.
We have Requiems where the intent and texts pray for foregiveness of the deceased sins and and their eternal rest. The intent is specific, it is more than a memorial service or "celebration of life." Booklets that call the event a Celebration of Life seem to go with services that are anything but celebratory.
Next, Eulogies. What is to be done about them? They are often hagiographic, too long and say little about what the deceased was actually like as a person. Do your places provide guidelines? They might be helpful. Some RC dioceses ban them from church and suggest they are best kept for the wake. Then does what is left feel too impersonal?
Finally music. The rule is, no secular music and no recorded music at services. A visiting priest allowed a recording of Lets Twist Again as the coffin was entering the Church. It was the deceased favourite song. The congregation stood in stunned silence. It was wildly inappropriate.
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Comments

  • Why was it inappropriate?
  • Why was it inappropriate?

    The general atmosphere was of great sadness. The music jarred against that.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited September 2024
    Our last permanent chap was very laissez-faire with funerals and now the local undertakers assume they can get away with anything. We have one preferred retired cleric for funerals and he is trying to impose some rules but it is an uphill struggle.

    At the beginning of every funeral he meets the bearer party at the churchyard gate and reads The Sentences until they reach the porch door, whereupon I'm given a signal to bring the music to a close and the final Sentence is read after the coffin has been placed on the trestles.

    Eulogies - most are overlong and the standard is variable. We try to limit to 10 minutes, and suggest that if a much longer tribute is desired they should print it on separate paper to be inserted into the Order of Service.

    All our funerals have a brief sermon, and all have at least one Bible reading. However, the desire for secular readings can be a mixed bag.

    By-and-large we have circumvented the trend for secular music at the end because the cleric of choice likes to read the words of the Nunc dimittis as he leads the coffin out. Previously we have had the full horror-show from Wish me luck as you wave me goodbye, Always look on the bright side of life, and Arthur Brown's Fire (and yes, that was a service before cremation) to Britney Spears singing Toxic. If the family don't specify then I tend to play something like O rest in the Lord or other appropriate whiffle*.

    We have now started a funeral wishes scheme for worshippers where they can deposit with the Parish Office an outline of what they would wish to have at their funeral.

    {*Organists' whiffle = suitable filling-in, often improvised, at funerals often referencing the deceased and their interests.]
  • A recent funeral ended with a ( permitted) recording of the deceased, who once had a fine voice, singing ‘ O rest in the Lord’.
    Beautiful, but a bit spooky somehow.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Shoehorning everyone into the same ill-fitting liturgical requirements is a great way to make sure people move from indifference toward the church to actively disliking it.
  • Puzzler wrote: »
    A recent funeral ended with a ( permitted) recording of the deceased, who once had a fine voice, singing ‘ O rest in the Lord’.
    Beautiful, but a bit spooky somehow.

    Yes. A much-loved Occupational Health Nurse, who died at the age of 48, was also a talented singer. She was a long time a-dying, but was able to record a couple of songs, which were duly played as her coffin was carried from the church.

    I was myself so choked up by this time that I can't recall what the songs were, but there was barely a dry eye in the house...

  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    The rule is, no secular music and no recorded music at services.

    I mean, this is ridiculous. Wake up and smell the 21st century. Or the 20th even. Most people don't surround themselves with live, religious music, and there's no reason to dictate that funerals only have live, religious music.

    The service should be whatever works best for the mourners and be appropriate for the deceased. Prescribing only sacred music for someone who found all hymns to be dreary would be flat wrong. A funeral is one of the few times outside Christmas and Easter when you could get a bunch of people in the church who seldom or never attend services. It should be meaningful for the people gathered, not designed around the tastes and preferences of the people conducting it.

    A friend who is a retired priest was once asked to lead an informal off-site funeral service for a biker, someone who had had a tangential but real relationship to the parish. He said he took some appropriate language from the prayer book, and everyone in the small circle shared some memories of the deceased. At the end someone got out a flask and passed it around, and when it came to the priest, he drank and passed it to the next person -- he said he recognized communion when he saw it.
  • Is it only the Roman Catholic Church which forbids secular or recorded music at funerals? Do the Orthodox churches have rules?

    It does seem unduly restrictive, although I recall a former Anglican priest in this Diocese (he later joined the Ordinariate) fulminating publicly about the popularity of My Way, and other similar ditties, at funerals...his wrath was reported in various national papers...

    The last funeral I conducted before my retirement was that of JT, a long-term member of Our Place. He left no detailed instructions as to the service, which was held in church (it wasn't a Funeral Mass), but his daughters and I agreed on a couple of hymns, and a recording of Roger Whittaker singing The Last Farewell, during which the coffin and family left the building.

    That song was, it seems, one of JT's favourites, and thus wholly appropriate.

    BTW, one of the daughters wrote a very good short eulogy, which she asked me to read. I quite enjoyed doing do, and it was so well written that it even produced some laughter from the assembled family and friends...

    It was the hottest day of that summer (2018), and I recall standing by the graveside in my C of E vesture of cassock, cotta, and Blue Scarf, not feeling all that well, but thinking how cool and welcoming the grave appeared...
  • Do the Orthodox churches have rules?

    If you want a funeral in an Orthodox Church you have what is prescibed in the service book. There is no provision for musical "optional extras". Eulogies, however, are another matter . . .
  • General Rule of Lutheran Funerals, no secular music during service. However there is some leeway, a smart minister knows when to give a little. My Mom planned out her whole service except for music. That fell to me and brother. I chose two traditional hymns she loved. Brother found a country music piece he wanted. Officiating minister--who was LCMS--allowed it.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    The rule is, no secular music and no recorded music at services.

    I mean, this is ridiculous. Wake up and smell the 21st century. Or the 20th even. Most people don't surround themselves with live, religious music, and there's no reason to dictate that funerals only have live, religious music.

    The service should be whatever works best for the mourners and be appropriate for the deceased. Prescribing only sacred music for someone who found all hymns to be dreary would be flat wrong. A funeral is one of the few times outside Christmas and Easter when you could get a bunch of people in the church who seldom or never attend services. It should be meaningful for the people gathered, not designed around the tastes and preferences of the people conducting it.

    A friend who is a retired priest was once asked to lead an informal off-site funeral service for a biker, someone who had had a tangential but real relationship to the parish. He said he took some appropriate language from the prayer book, and everyone in the small circle shared some memories of the deceased. At the end someone got out a flask and passed it around, and when it came to the priest, he drank and passed it to the next person -- he said he recognized communion when he saw it.

    Is it? If churches have defined liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules, why can't people who want some kind of memorial service outside of those bounds have it someplace else?
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Next, Eulogies. What is to be done about them? They are often hagiographic, too long and say little about what the deceased was actually like as a person. Do your places provide guidelines? They might be helpful. Some RC dioceses ban them from church and suggest they are best kept for the wake. Then does what is left feel too impersonal?
    Finally music. The rule is, no secular music and no recorded music at services. A visiting priest allowed a recording of Lets Twist Again as the coffin was entering the Church. It was the deceased favourite song. The congregation stood in stunned silence. It was wildly inappropriate.

    Previous priest had a strict rule about eulogies (there isn't one), and I'm rather sympathetic to that point of view. A sermon at a funeral may naturally draw from the example of the recently deceased, but the focus is on God, and not on what a great person the deceased was.

    My preference is to have the funeral, which is fundamentally an act of Christian worship, and then have a wake, at which we can all eat and drink and tell stories of the deceased.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    If churches have defined liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules, why can't people who want some kind of memorial service outside of those bounds have it someplace else?

    They can, and the church becomes increasingly irrelevant to their lives and to society in general. Churches that put their liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules ahead of serving people deserve to die.
  • My preference is to have the funeral, which is fundamentally an act of Christian worship, and then have a wake, at which we can all eat and drink and tell stories of the deceased.
    I have prepared detailed* instructions about what I want—music, readings, liturgical options, flowers, etc.—and what I don’t want at my funeral and at my committal. A copy has been provided to the church and another copy is where my family can easily lay hands on it.

    In the “under no circumstances” list of things are eulogies/remembrances. The notes say “Stories can be told another time, over food and drink.” (Also on the “under no circumstances” list is use of the phrase “celebration of life.”)

    I found the process of putting those instructions and notes together to be a surprisingly spiritual exercise.

    Meanwhile, in Presbyterian churches, rules or guidelines about things like what music is permitted or the like are decisions for a congregation’s Session and ministers. Some congregations have written policies, while others may deal with things on a case-by-case basis. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered straight-up secular songs in a church funeral.
    *Those who know me well and who’ve seen these instructions would laugh at “detailed.” And with very good reason, I’ll readily admit. It is something of an understatement. :lol: Once I got started, it got hard to pull back. The notes I prepared include lots of “whys”—why this hymn or that reading, for example.

    I’ll add that my instructions also include:
    Finally, these are the liturgies as I would like them, and they’ve been written with the goal of cohesive services that reflect what is important to me. But I fully appreciate that I won’t be there for these services, and I will not come back and haunt anyone if circumstances or needs of my family require changes. Please just at least sing “All Creatures of Our God and King,” “I to the Hills Will Lift My Eyes” and “Now Thank We All Our God.”
    So I hope I’ve given them what they need to be able to say “It’s what he would have wanted,” as well as permission to do something else if that’s what they need to do.

  • A close friend showed a video of his dad (the deceased) praying/talking about his faith journey at his dad's funeral. It was moving and odd at the same time.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    If churches have defined liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules, why can't people who want some kind of memorial service outside of those bounds have it someplace else?

    They can, and the church becomes increasingly irrelevant to their lives and to society in general. Churches that put their liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules ahead of serving people deserve to die.

    People who want/expect churches to cater to every secular whim imaginable have already rendered anything that made it "church" irrelevant. Let them rent out a bar or hotel conference room.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    A friend of my mum's, a lovely clergyman who was immensely good to her and conducted the funeral services of both my parents and one of my brothers, wrote very long and detailed instructions for his funeral - apparently becoming quite obsessive about it towards the end of his life. It was very, very long and he had written every single word of it including the eulogy. (He was buried in a prime spot in the churchyard; we did wonder whether he'd also dug the hole himself.) I've left instructions with my husband that if he wants to speak at my funeral, or either of our children do, that's ok but there are not to be random people chipping in with "a few little thoughts about Nenya". The place for them is in a book of remembrance.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    If churches have defined liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules, why can't people who want some kind of memorial service outside of those bounds have it someplace else?

    They can, and the church becomes increasingly irrelevant to their lives and to society in general. Churches that put their liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules ahead of serving people deserve to die.

    Maybe churches with strict liturgical rules should offer a range of styles. I have played at far too many requiems where no family members went to communion or even went for a blessing when invited.
    On bans etc, the phrase about the Sabbath being made for man comes to mind.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    The rule is, no secular music and no recorded music at services.

    I mean, this is ridiculous. Wake up and smell the 21st century. Or the 20th even. Most people don't surround themselves with live, religious music, and there's no reason to dictate that funerals only have live, religious music.

    The service should be whatever works best for the mourners and be appropriate for the deceased. Prescribing only sacred music for someone who found all hymns to be dreary would be flat wrong. A funeral is one of the few times outside Christmas and Easter when you could get a bunch of people in the church who seldom or never attend services. It should be meaningful for the people gathered, not designed around the tastes and preferences of the people conducting it.

    A friend who is a retired priest was once asked to lead an informal off-site funeral service for a biker, someone who had had a tangential but real relationship to the parish. He said he took some appropriate language from the prayer book, and everyone in the small circle shared some memories of the deceased. At the end someone got out a flask and passed it around, and when it came to the priest, he drank and passed it to the next person -- he said he recognized communion when he saw it.

    This.

    We are there to be with those who are mourning the deceased. When the funeral includes music meaningful to them (whether secular or religious doesn’t matter), perhaps a poem, and a eulogy which includes an anecdote or two which reminds people of who s/he was, those gathered are more likely to bond and to remember the service with good feelings than if they have religion thrust upon them and a denial of what they require.

    I advise the families to write a eulogy of around 5 minutes which everyone inputs to, rather than having several which repeat each other. I offer to read it if a family member doesn’t want to, and I’m on standby on the day in case they are too upset to read it. They are usually happy with this.

    I never include a confession or a sermon, other than a few words about the love of God. The liturgy says it all.

    I did have to insist that prayers and liturgy be included when someone asked to leave them out of a service in church, however. I have pointed people toward secular celebrants if they don’t want any mention of God.
  • .
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    People who want/expect churches to cater to every secular whim imaginable have already rendered anything that made it "church" irrelevant. Let them rent out a bar or hotel conference room.

    They should, and they do. It's the people who feel church is appropriate for a funeral and do want some religious content that we're talking about.
    Raptor Eye wrote: »
    I did have to insist that prayers and liturgy be included when someone asked to leave them out of a service in church, however. I have pointed people toward secular celebrants if they don’t want any mention of God.

    It used to be part of my job to book both weddings and funerals at a church, and once a prospective bride asked me, "Does the minister have to talk about God?" The tone of my response was probably a bit severe. And we got a fair number of couples getting married who cared more about aesthetics than religion. But my experience while working over 20 years in a church office was that if non-members called up looking for a funeral or memorial service, they were nearly always calling because in some way they felt like a religious service was appropriate.
  • Raptor Eye wrote: »
    I advise the families to write a eulogy of around 5 minutes which everyone inputs to, rather than having several which repeat each other. I offer to read it if a family member doesn’t want to, and I’m on standby on the day in case they are too upset to read it. They are usually happy with this.
    Same here, though I give them 10 minutes. I have had the "several repeating each other" in the past - if possible, I ask to see the eulogy beforehand (which helps me to prepare my "few words").

  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    There was recently a big Falling Out in my mum's family regarding funerals. My mum's parents' funeral 2 years ago had been hijacked by some family members who were unable to think beyond themselves and so when their honorary aunt died and my mum took charge of the funeral and ensured it was done in line with the deceased's instructions (and input for a eulogy given to the minister in advance for incorporation) there was an almighty stooshie. I don't envy priests and ministers having to negotiate family politics, but it should be borne in mind that those demanding to be able to stand up front and deliver long ramblings are often making it about themselves and not the deceased, and in fact thr shouty ones pushing for this are often overriding the wishes of other family members who would be grateful to the person conducting the funeral to restoring a little decorum and balance to proceedings.
  • I assisted at a crematorium funeral some years ago, which was somewhat derailed by the long and anguished eulogy from the deceased's younger sister (the deceased lady herself was only in her 50s).

    The retired priest who was officiating had not checked with the sister regarding her eulogy (an odd omission on his part - he is a very experienced and good pastor), but managed to discreetly bring the anguished outpourings to a close...

    His own address was necessarily greatly shortened, and the prayers I was supposed to lead were omitted altogether, but we managed to get the service done within the measly 20 minutes or so allowed by the crematorium slot.

    The late arrival of the hearse (an en route puncture!) didn't help...

    Fortunately, the Family possesses a GSOH, and the widower still chuckles at the memory of the service to this day.
  • Most of the funerals of my work chums have been at the Crem, Hearing the Z cars theme is popular as the coffin disappears from sight.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Most of the funerals of my work chums have been at the Crem, Hearing the Z cars theme is popular as the coffin disappears from sight.

    Well, it is just the tune for Lead us, heavenly Father, lead us jazzed up.
  • Telford wrote: »
    Most of the funerals of my work chums have been at the Crem, Hearing the Z cars theme is popular as the coffin disappears from sight.

    Well, it is just the tune for Lead us, heavenly Father, lead us jazzed up.
    If that's the case, why haven't I ever heard anyone singing it as the coffin dsappears

  • The coffin is sound proof?
  • Telford wrote: »
    Most of the funerals of my work chums have been at the Crem, Hearing the Z cars theme is popular as the coffin disappears from sight.

    Well, it is just the tune for Lead us, heavenly Father, lead us jazzed up.

    That's brilliant!
    Now I've seen/ heard it, I will always smile when I sing that hymn.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    edited September 2024
    It's a folk song/sea shanty called Johnny Todd. The anthem of Everton football club. So if it's played here it's not a reference to Z Cars.
    https://youtu.be/1m_ysiV4uVY?feature=shared
  • I remember singing Johnny Todd at primary school (in deepest Middlesex, not Merseyside!)
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    It's a folk song/sea shanty called Johnny Todd. The anthem of Everton football club. So if it's played here it's not a reference to Z Cars.
    https://youtu.be/1m_ysiV4uVY?feature=shared

    Could lead to interesting conundrums when Liverpool supporting 1960s-era Liverpool policemen die, certainly.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    The_Riv wrote: »
    If churches have defined liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules, why can't people who want some kind of memorial service outside of those bounds have it someplace else?

    They can, and the church becomes increasingly irrelevant to their lives and to society in general. Churches that put their liturgies, rubrics, norms and rules ahead of serving people deserve to die.

    There is a thriving Roman Catholic church near here that's known for its Latin Masses and is run by a religious order. When a Requiem is done for someone (or All Souls, etc.), that's an entirely defined thing. The texts and chants (if sung) go ahead like well-oiled machinery. I was asked to join their schola for one particular Requiem on a Saturday, it was one of a series of sung ones, and there was no special planning or eulogy; it just happened and was rather beautiful. The chant folio for the singers had the items from the Liber Usualis along with notes about when to start each bit, what the priest did/said between them, and how to know when to stop adding verses to the Communion psalm and wrap it up with the Requiem aeternam verse and antiphon.

    I rather liked it (put would prefer English) and wouldn't mind if this were done for me. No need to talk about me except to pray for the repose of my soul.
  • I’ve been to funerals where nothing is said about who the deceased person was, at their request. While it might indicate a humility on their part, I find it doesn’t help those left behind, who often do want to celebrate the life of the one they have loved and lost, the one who has hardly been mentioned!
  • Many churches ,rightly or wrongly, believe that it is in their liturgies, that they provide a service for people who wish to use these services.
  • I once went to a Quaker funeral, conducted like one of their meetings. Problem was that most who were present weren't Friends and had no idea what to do.
  • I once went to a Quaker funeral, conducted like one of their meetings. Problem was that most who were present weren't Friends and had no idea what to do.

    I'm guessing that the silences were rather awkward for those not at all used to such things...
  • I once went to a Quaker funeral, conducted like one of their meetings. Problem was that most who were present weren't Friends and had no idea what to do.

    I'm guessing that the silences were rather awkward for those not at all used to such things...

    Having been to one myself, I can vouch for that.
  • I once went to a Quaker funeral, conducted like one of their meetings. Problem was that most who were present weren't Friends and had no idea what to do.

    I'm guessing that the silences were rather awkward for those not at all used to such things...

    Not only that, but people were very reluctant to stand up and speak, not helped by the fact that we were in a Crem with ranks of pews rather than a Meeting House.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Usually a meeting like that will start with a quick explanation for those unfamiliar and Friends will stand and speak at times.
  • A little explanation was given - but it's not easy for people, unprepared, to stand up and speak amidst strangers.

    The memorial Meeting they had later was much better organised.
  • I once went to a Quaker funeral, conducted like one of their meetings. Problem was that most who were present weren't Friends and had no idea what to do.

    I'm guessing that the silences were rather awkward for those not at all used to such things...

    I went to one (well, not an actual funeral but a memorial service) and found the awkwardness lay in anxiety that people (including myself) might say the wrong things or not all the right things. The silence was fine (but I'm an introvert and used to retreats).

    As for more conventional funerals, the more structured and less bespoke the better as far as I am concerned. As a pastor I would aim to be sensitive to the bereaveds' wishes, but the objective structure of the liturgy is a way of holding together many strong emotions which can take over if there is less of a framework, and I would gently point this out to them.
  • angloid wrote: »
    I once went to a Quaker funeral, conducted like one of their meetings. Problem was that most who were present weren't Friends and had no idea what to do.

    I'm guessing that the silences were rather awkward for those not at all used to such things...

    I went to one (well, not an actual funeral but a memorial service) and found the awkwardness lay in anxiety that people (including myself) might say the wrong things or not all the right things. The silence was fine (but I'm an introvert and used to retreats).

    As for more conventional funerals, the more structured and less bespoke the better as far as I am concerned. As a pastor I would aim to be sensitive to the bereaveds' wishes, but the objective structure of the liturgy is a way of holding together many strong emotions which can take over if there is less of a framework, and I would gently point this out to them.

    This, on both counts.

    The last funeral at which I officiated was very much a compromise - the family wanted virtually nothing religious, despite their father (the Deceased) having been an active Christian and a fine chorister for most of his long life.

    We eventually agreed on a fairly minimalist liturgy in church - the traditional opening sentences, a short Bible reading, a hymn, a prayer, and a eulogy written by one of the daughters, but read by me. Incense and Holy Water were used once the coffin was in place, this being an Anglo-Catholic parish...

    The Burial in the local cemetery was accompanied by that lovely prayer from the BCP which begins *Forasmuch as it hath pleased Almighty God...*, entirely appropriate for a man who was brought up, so to speak, on the BCP and (later) the English Missal.

    Though I say it as shouldn't, it all hung together well, and the Family did take the trouble to thank both me and my assistant (Madam Sacristan).







  • The funeral of a dear friends mum (of a baptist/brethren background) had a "testimony" type slot where any member of the congregation could share a memory or reflection on her life. I had quite the feeling of dread seeing this in the order of service but in practice it worked incredibly well much to my surprise. The service wasn't at a crem...
  • Ah - the dreaded crem slot! Just 20 minutes' worth* at our local place, though there's another crem a few miles away which offers 40 minute slots.

    *Well, sort of. They're scheduled at half-hourly intervals, with the 00 and 30 slots in Chapel A, and the 15 and 45 slots in Chapel B, because of congestion... What with getting people in and out, there's usually only 20 minutes left for the service itself.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Another one today billed as A Celebration of the Life that was anything but a celebration.
    Just awful.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    What made it so awful?
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    It was a Requiem Mass. Everyone seemed to be unchurched, so uncomfortable in an unfamiliar setting. Someone in the family picked modernish hymns that nobody knew or sang. The Eulogy was two minutes long (for a lady in her 90s.) Just a recitation of her dates. Did she work? Did she have children? What was she like? No idea.
    The priest was no help. Gabbled through the prayers. Gave no guidance to the congregation about what was going on, didnt greet the mourners by name at the start. Made a hash of the end so the pall bearers had to hot-foot it down the aisle to the coffin.
    A wretched affair. The poeple must have gone away with a terrible impression of us.
  • Very sad.

    Excuse my ignorance, but does the RC Church have a non-eucharistic funeral liturgy that could be used if the family of the deceased is not especially religious (or RC)?

  • It's my brother's funeral tomorrow.
    I am doing a Bible reading, his beautiful 16 year old son is by choice, if he can manage it reading a poem- someone else is on standby just in case.
    Three friends are doing the eulogy, friends are also carrying his coffin into the church.
    There will be hymns.
    The funeral is at the church his widow attends- he stopped attending church regularly years ago.
    If I have the strength I will report back afterwards.
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