While there is antidotal evidence to the contrary, over-all immigrants are not a threat to western culture. They assimilate over time, often they contribute to cultural renewal, and they are incubators for small business development.
I have a truly terrifying collection of anecdotes that American white people suck. And I am one.
Surely that's racist.
Or does racism not apply to white people?
Is that a rhetorical question aimed at scoring political points? Or is it an earnest request for information?
I'd like to respond, but my response depends on the intent. And online, it's very hard to read intent.
Should Muslims be excluded from western culture? No! Exclusion based on religion violated the core democratic value Western societies claim to uphold--freedom of religion, equality under the law and human dignity. Cultures that try to "freeze out" ethnic groups end up becoming brittle. Cultures that integrate newcomers become more resilient.
In the United States Muslims have been here since even before the Revolutionary War. They have long been citizens and voters. They are well represented as doctors, teachers, engineers. They are artists, writers, athletes as well. They are not "outsiders" knocking on the door. They are already woven into the social fabric
Exclusion itself, not the presence of Muslims, would undermine Western culture.
@ChastMastr@Gramps49 actual Irish people from Ireland hate American St Patrick's Day celebrations, because they're generally based on inaccuracies and stereotypes - for a start, Patrick is always Paddy in Ireland, never Patty. I'm not making a judgement either way, but I do think it raises interesting questions about diaspora celebrations and diaspora culture generally. Likewise, Irish people generally view American Halloween as a gross commercialisation of Irish Samhain (pronounced "Sam'un" not like "Sam-hayn").
@WhimsicalChristian as you have required a hosting intervention less than 48 hours on from an admin warning, you will be suspended for two weeks shoreleave.
Yes, many ethnic celebrations in the United States take on characteristics that are not followed in the country of origin. In Mexico Cinco de Mayo marks the Battle of Puebla in which the Mexican Army defeated the French. It is not even a national holiday though. Outside the state of Puebla 5 May is a regular work and school day. Compare that to the US where it becomes a nationwide cultural celebration. It is far more widely celebrated in the US than in Mexico. Corporate marketing is a big driver of Cinco de Mayo in the US.
Likewise, corporate marketing is a big driver of the way St. Patrick's Day is celebrated in the US.
Anyway to make a buck.
BTW, I am sorry I used the feminine name for St Patrick. I know Paddy is the correct masculine name.
@ChastMastr@Gramps49 actual Irish people from Ireland hate American St Patrick's Day celebrations, because they're generally based on inaccuracies and stereotypes - for a start, Patrick is always Paddy in Ireland, never Patty. I'm not making a judgement either way, but I do think it raises interesting questions about diaspora celebrations and diaspora culture generally. Likewise, Irish people generally view American Halloween as a gross commercialisation of Irish Samhain (pronounced "Sam'un" not like "Sam-hayn").
I always thought it was SOW-un?
Regardless, I try to think of the real St. Patrick for his saint’s day myself, and I’m not sure I’ve ever called him Paddy or Patty verbally or mentally. I do try to do some Irish/Irish-inspired food around the day, maybe play some Irish folk music. Every year I buy some Guinness and every year I forget to drink it though sometimes I cook with it.
As for Hallowe’en, I do like the fun stuff (trick or treating, spooky movies, candy) but also the actual spiritual aspects of it, the Eve of All Hallows’ (plus All Saints’ Day and All Souls’ Day/Dia de los Muertos and such).
@ChastMastr@Gramps49 actual Irish people from Ireland hate American St Patrick's Day celebrations, because they're generally based on inaccuracies and stereotypes - for a start, Patrick is always Paddy in Ireland, never Patty. I'm not making a judgement either way, but I do think it raises interesting questions about diaspora celebrations and diaspora culture generally. Likewise, Irish people generally view American Halloween as a gross commercialisation of Irish Samhain (pronounced "Sam'un" not like "Sam-hayn").
And American Chinese food is profoundly different from Chinese Chinese food, ditto American Italian food. Mexicans in Mexico don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, but it's a big deal in California. The traditions immigrants bring to the US inevitably change after a while. While people abroad get their panties in a bunch about it I don't understand. The Japanese eat strawberry shortcake at Christmas and Christmas Eve is apparently a big date night - this does not affect my own understanding or celebration of Christmas.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
Why in the world does that get your underwear knotted? What does it matter to you? What stake do you have in how various American groups choose to refer to themselves? What experience do you have living in the US, a country overwhelmingly populated by immigrants and the descendants of immigrants, many of whom were ostracized and discriminated against by the descendants of European (well, at least parts of Europe—not Ireland, Italy or quite a few other places) immigrants, and who called themselves things like “Italian American” or “African American” to emphasize that they are just as fully American as the English Americans or French Americans?
With all due respect, there’s a bit of Trumpian dog whistling in your perspective.
@ChastMastr@Gramps49 actual Irish people from Ireland hate American St Patrick's Day celebrations, because they're generally based on inaccuracies and stereotypes - for a start, Patrick is always Paddy in Ireland, never Patty. I'm not making a judgement either way, but I do think it raises interesting questions about diaspora celebrations and diaspora culture generally. Likewise, Irish people generally view American Halloween as a gross commercialisation of Irish Samhain (pronounced "Sam'un" not like "Sam-hayn").
And American Chinese food is profoundly different from Chinese Chinese food, ditto American Italian food. Mexicans in Mexico don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, but it's a big deal in California. The traditions immigrants bring to the US inevitably change after a while. While people abroad get their panties in a bunch about it I don't understand. The Japanese eat strawberry shortcake at Christmas and Christmas Eve is apparently a big date night - this does not affect my own understanding or celebration of Christmas.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location so I don’t know if you mean a philosophical or political or other perspective from within or outside the US, but I (I’m in the US, not that I think it’s relevant—see rest of sentence) have no problem with anyone using a hyphenated adjective to describe what kind of heritage-American they are. Or for that matter anyone from any other ethnicity and society, if that’s what they want to do. African-American, Chinese-Canadian, Hispanic Cambodian, Lemurian-Atlantean, Martian-Jupiterian. If it matters to someone to include that, for all kinds of reasons, let them do it.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location . . . .
@ThunderBunk is British, and since he said “from our perspective” rather than “from my perspective,” I assume he meant “from a British perspective.”
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location . . . .
@ThunderBunk is British, and since he said “from our perspective” rather than “from my perspective,” I assume he meant “from a British perspective.”
Aha, thanks. (I’m not convinced that all British people think this way…)
I think Americans identifying where our ancestry originates is part of our heritage. It shows how much of a mixed salad we really are. Gives us more flavor than most countries.
So, here's a very culturally specific story about racism from a very caucasian context...
I was going to meet my cousin's partner after a while. This being a cousin I've been there for multiple times over the years after a series of failed relationships and a pack of kids. I say this not to boast or to shame, she's had a hard life and I'm proud of her for surviving it. And I'm honored that I've had the opportunity to be there for her. And finally she has a good partner and I got a chance to meet the guy after a few chats online. I like him!
So he picks me up and asks me, very drily, "So, did you spit two teeth out as you crossed the state line?"
And this is the moment where I will pause and wonder who all here is familiar with the unfortunate regional stereotypes associated with West Virginia. See, when people don't have a lot of money, they can't afford good dental care. And when you can't afford good dental care, and/or the nearest dentist is a few hours' drive away, well...you just give up on your teeth at some point. So there is an old, gnarly, ugly-as-sin stereotype that poor white hicks from West Virginia and similar regions have bad teeth. It's one of those jokes that may well start a fight if you're an outsider (or at least earn you some truly epic dirty looks.) But if you're an insider or border case like me, it passes for a litmus test of your good humor and tolerance.
Taking this as a joke, I smiled. Months later I related to him that I was having an implant done, and he accepted that as honorary membership. We got a laugh out of that. Apparently I still have too many teeth.
My more-or-less brother-in-law can lightly crack a joke about missing teeth because he's from West Virginia. I'm from Western Maryland, next state over. Even with the same geography; we have "blue state" higher taxes, a higher standard of living, and better roads. I don't make those jokes. But if he tells a joke to me by way of introduction, I'm allowed to laugh with him and we're close enough that we can share in it. While we are all white people, even here the cultural boundaries deserve some respect.
Just being from one part of the USA, and migrating to another rather different part of the USA as an adult has given me an immigrant complex with a lot of odd feelings about where I grew up.
I can't even imagine how it'd play out after a few generations of separation.
One thing that makes me feel uncomfortable about St Patrick's Day in the USA is that it seems to revolve around what were originally ugly WASP stereotypes about drunken Irishmen. Like we're projecting or something.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
This demonstrates profound ignorance of North American life, and the meaning of those ethnic identifications to those who use them.
People who emigrated to North America found themselves in a bewildering sea of differing ethnic origins. Finding others of your own ethnic group was a source of safety and comfort. If you felt you were being threatened by members of X group, you could call upon members of your own Y group to stand with you and protect you. This was necessary in times and places where law enforcement was not strong, and/or uninterested in those conflicts.
Those ethnic affiliations may have been pathways toward securing employment, housing, and medical care, along with other social benefits.
Perhaps that can help you understand why those ethnic identifications were so important, and were taught to be important to descendants. They were sources of strength and even survival, and shared joy in common celebrations.
In the economy of the English language, "My ancestry is [Ethnicity-American]" or "I'm [Ethnicity-Canadian]" is often shortened to "I'm [Ethnicity]." It does not mean the speaker thinks they are a citizen of that country, or has voting rights there.
Given that history, I find it especially ironic to find deep and personal identification with football clubs in those same countries where some decry North American ethnic identification.
Um...yeah. America is huge. You don't even have to hyphenate to find different cultures. You just have to have lived in different parts of the country long enough to pick up a few divergent mannerisms.
What really gets my underwear knotted is the habit of Americans hyphenating. From our perspective, all Americans are wholly American, wherever their ancestors came from, and the claiming of another culture is emetic.
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location . . . .
@ThunderBunk is British, and since he said “from our perspective” rather than “from my perspective,” I assume he meant “from a British perspective.”
Just found this post I made a few hours ago in draft.
Aha, thanks. (I’m not convinced that all British people think this way…)
I read "from a British perspective" to imply that there are other British perspectives.
From my British perspective (from my Brethren parents) people could be Greek, Italian, Indian etc. and also British. It wasn't that important to me growing up as we were all children of God (lower case intended), just as we (tried) not to think in terms of class.
In Australia I remember hearing of an exchange -
Aussie "We like our immigrants. We call them New Australians."
American "We call ours Americans!"
This wasn't the only perspective. Italians and Greeks were known as Wogs. However, the TV program Wogs Out Of Work featuring them as the stars gave the term a positive connotation.
Comments
Is that a rhetorical question aimed at scoring political points? Or is it an earnest request for information?
I'd like to respond, but my response depends on the intent. And online, it's very hard to read intent.
In the United States Muslims have been here since even before the Revolutionary War. They have long been citizens and voters. They are well represented as doctors, teachers, engineers. They are artists, writers, athletes as well. They are not "outsiders" knocking on the door. They are already woven into the social fabric
Exclusion itself, not the presence of Muslims, would undermine Western culture.
@WhimsicalChristian as you have required a hosting intervention less than 48 hours on from an admin warning, you will be suspended for two weeks shoreleave.
Doublethink, Admin
[/Admin]
Likewise, corporate marketing is a big driver of the way St. Patrick's Day is celebrated in the US.
Anyway to make a buck.
BTW, I am sorry I used the feminine name for St Patrick. I know Paddy is the correct masculine name.
I always thought it was SOW-un?
Regardless, I try to think of the real St. Patrick for his saint’s day myself, and I’m not sure I’ve ever called him Paddy or Patty verbally or mentally. I do try to do some Irish/Irish-inspired food around the day, maybe play some Irish folk music. Every year I buy some Guinness and every year I forget to drink it though sometimes I cook with it.
As for Hallowe’en, I do like the fun stuff (trick or treating, spooky movies, candy) but also the actual spiritual aspects of it, the Eve of All Hallows’ (plus All Saints’ Day and All Souls’ Day/Dia de los Muertos and such).
It is. mh in Irish and Scots Gaelic is either a w or v sound, depending on context. It's never an m sound.
And American Chinese food is profoundly different from Chinese Chinese food, ditto American Italian food. Mexicans in Mexico don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, but it's a big deal in California. The traditions immigrants bring to the US inevitably change after a while. While people abroad get their panties in a bunch about it I don't understand. The Japanese eat strawberry shortcake at Christmas and Christmas Eve is apparently a big date night - this does not affect my own understanding or celebration of Christmas.
With all due respect, there’s a bit of Trumpian dog whistling in your perspective.
And KFC for Christmas in Japan!
I genuinely don’t know what your perspective is because I looked at your profile and it didn’t give your location so I don’t know if you mean a philosophical or political or other perspective from within or outside the US, but I (I’m in the US, not that I think it’s relevant—see rest of sentence) have no problem with anyone using a hyphenated adjective to describe what kind of heritage-American they are. Or for that matter anyone from any other ethnicity and society, if that’s what they want to do. African-American, Chinese-Canadian, Hispanic Cambodian, Lemurian-Atlantean, Martian-Jupiterian. If it matters to someone to include that, for all kinds of reasons, let them do it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4bf7LlCc20QDcd2r0PYGC0c/black-and-scottish-i-thought-i-was-the-only-black-person-in-the-world
Aha, thanks. (I’m not convinced that all British people think this way…)
I was going to meet my cousin's partner after a while. This being a cousin I've been there for multiple times over the years after a series of failed relationships and a pack of kids. I say this not to boast or to shame, she's had a hard life and I'm proud of her for surviving it. And I'm honored that I've had the opportunity to be there for her. And finally she has a good partner and I got a chance to meet the guy after a few chats online. I like him!
So he picks me up and asks me, very drily, "So, did you spit two teeth out as you crossed the state line?"
And this is the moment where I will pause and wonder who all here is familiar with the unfortunate regional stereotypes associated with West Virginia. See, when people don't have a lot of money, they can't afford good dental care. And when you can't afford good dental care, and/or the nearest dentist is a few hours' drive away, well...you just give up on your teeth at some point. So there is an old, gnarly, ugly-as-sin stereotype that poor white hicks from West Virginia and similar regions have bad teeth. It's one of those jokes that may well start a fight if you're an outsider (or at least earn you some truly epic dirty looks.) But if you're an insider or border case like me, it passes for a litmus test of your good humor and tolerance.
Taking this as a joke, I smiled. Months later I related to him that I was having an implant done, and he accepted that as honorary membership. We got a laugh out of that. Apparently I still have too many teeth.
My more-or-less brother-in-law can lightly crack a joke about missing teeth because he's from West Virginia. I'm from Western Maryland, next state over. Even with the same geography; we have "blue state" higher taxes, a higher standard of living, and better roads. I don't make those jokes. But if he tells a joke to me by way of introduction, I'm allowed to laugh with him and we're close enough that we can share in it. While we are all white people, even here the cultural boundaries deserve some respect.
I can't even imagine how it'd play out after a few generations of separation.
One thing that makes me feel uncomfortable about St Patrick's Day in the USA is that it seems to revolve around what were originally ugly WASP stereotypes about drunken Irishmen. Like we're projecting or something.
This demonstrates profound ignorance of North American life, and the meaning of those ethnic identifications to those who use them.
People who emigrated to North America found themselves in a bewildering sea of differing ethnic origins. Finding others of your own ethnic group was a source of safety and comfort. If you felt you were being threatened by members of X group, you could call upon members of your own Y group to stand with you and protect you. This was necessary in times and places where law enforcement was not strong, and/or uninterested in those conflicts.
Those ethnic affiliations may have been pathways toward securing employment, housing, and medical care, along with other social benefits.
Perhaps that can help you understand why those ethnic identifications were so important, and were taught to be important to descendants. They were sources of strength and even survival, and shared joy in common celebrations.
In the economy of the English language, "My ancestry is [Ethnicity-American]" or "I'm [Ethnicity-Canadian]" is often shortened to "I'm [Ethnicity]." It does not mean the speaker thinks they are a citizen of that country, or has voting rights there.
Given that history, I find it especially ironic to find deep and personal identification with football clubs in those same countries where some decry North American ethnic identification.
I read "from a British perspective" to imply that there are other British perspectives.
From my British perspective (from my Brethren parents) people could be Greek, Italian, Indian etc. and also British. It wasn't that important to me growing up as we were all children of God (lower case intended), just as we (tried) not to think in terms of class.
In Australia I remember hearing of an exchange -
Aussie "We like our immigrants. We call them New Australians."
American "We call ours Americans!"
This wasn't the only perspective. Italians and Greeks were known as Wogs. However, the TV program Wogs Out Of Work featuring them as the stars gave the term a positive connotation.