I began self-isolation three days ago after a big grocery run. I went to Kroger at 6 AM. when they just opened and I was about the only one there, then I put all $170 worth through the self check which was tedious but I ultimately think that was safer than delivery. Who knows how safety conscious the delivery clerks are and how many people they come in contact with every day?
Surely that would apply to the people making deliveries to the shop as well?
Of course. People have touched the merchandise from crop pickers to sorters to truck drivers to factory workers to packagers to distributors to people who stock the shelves in the market -- I've just cut out the cashier and bagger by going through the self-check, but I figure the fewer handlers the better and the amount of time that has passed from their touch and my home the better.
I don't see how it could be enforced. What would They do to Granny, if she (feeling quite well) ventured out to (for example) buy her copy of the Daily Wail ? Shoot her dead? Even just arresting her, supposing her crime to be detected, and escorting her back home would take a fair bit of Police or Army time/work...
I've already volunteered. We have a good plan which will sustain a long period of self isolation.
I recognise the arguments against starting too soon, but we've thought it all through. Self isolation includes support for my wife's 95 year old already housebound parents, who live within close walking distance.
You might want to check whether or not the grocery store will allow sending groceries to another address, if you're sending from your own account. I think maybe some don't allow that--under normal circumstances, anyway. If so, you might be able to set up an acct. for the recipient (or use their existing one), have the password, and get in that way. Don't know if the name on a credit card would be an issue.
Just something to consider, FWIW. YMMV.
Some years ago I set up a system for deliveries to my housebound mother 60 miles away. I set up an account with Tesco on my PC, using her name and address and credit card number. No problem at all.
A neighbour of mine, who I'd never met until a week ago, is being very sweet. Bags of hand gel have been left at my door, and today a note offering to shop for me while I "self isolate".
A week ago she called to see me, asking for my help in getting her child into the school of her choice. Am I being cynical....
A neighbour of mine, who I'd never met until a week ago, is being very sweet. Bags of hand gel have been left at my door, and today a note offering to shop for me while I "self isolate".
A week ago she called to see me, asking for my help in getting her child into the school of her choice. Am I being cynical....
Does it matter? If you can do some good for her and she can do some good for you where is the lose?
The world has become very surreal, the government is in talks with JCB, Rolls Royce and Unipart about making ventilators - and Best Western Hotels are offering to partner as makeshift hospitals.
I am not criticising these initiatives - they seem necessary - it’s just very mind bending.
I went to the supermarket early this morning assuming it wouldn't be very crowded. Hah!! There were many customers and carts piled higher than I have ever seen before.
I was interested to see a man whose cart was loaded, not only with toilet paper, but also paper napkins.
Mr F is my junior by 3 years, so he would be allowed out - but he's the one on chemo. So I will still be the main shopper - but hey, I can very well pass for 43 in the dusk with a light behind me.
That’s really good work on a list, @mark_in_manchester - a great example to follow.
The developing world, other things being equal, might not be as badly affected by the virus as you fear though - but for very sad reasons.
Take the most populous country in Africa - Nigeria - for example. The average life expectancy is around 56, and so there are fewer elderly people to be at risk from the virus. Around 3% of the population of Nigeria are 65 and over. In the UK, by comparison, it is around 20% - and in Italy around 23%.
Of course, that exposes a whole lot of other difficult questions about inequalities between the west and the developing world, but let’s pray they will be able to reduce contact and risk for their (relatively) small proportion of elders effectively. Lord knows they won’t have substantial healthcare resources to fall back on though, so I guess we are not done with the Kyries yet.
Mr F is my junior by 3 years, so he would be allowed out - but he's the one on chemo. So I will still be the main shopper - but hey, I can very well pass for 43 in the dusk with a light behind me.
I have always thought that I look handsome in the right lighting; that is, a single candle at a distance of about 50 feet.
I hope you find a good workaround and support if you need it though, @Firenze
We've no indication of social transmission outside of immediate families of travellers outside Canada. We've put together a notice between last evening and this morning for the office, and what to do. The risk is actually not different from last week. The goal is to pre-emptively manage the risk.
There is no testing generally available. The rule is that you stay home for 14 days at least if you have any symptoms at all, and if a family member does. Just like the prime minister of Canada is doing whose wife tested positive, and just like the leader of the New Democratic Party is because he has symptoms, which he tweets are probably not Covid-19 but the protocol is 14 days so he's doing it.
The world has become very surreal, the government is in talks with JCB, Rolls Royce and Unipart about making ventilators - and Best Western Hotels are offering to partner as makeshift hospitals.
I am not criticising these initiatives - they seem necessary - it’s just very mind bending.
Mr F is my junior by 3 years, so he would be allowed out - but he's the one on chemo. So I will still be the main shopper - but hey, I can very well pass for 43 in the dusk with a light behind me.
Same here, mine is five years younger, but he has heart trouble and takes blood thinners. I think he's at higher risk, but I've just never been able to tell him anything. A few minutes ago he left to go to his usual bar because I made the mistake of telling him that the governor said the bars and restaurants were all going to close indefinitely after 9 o'clock tonight.
Our Ohio governor has been wonderful through all this. It's a nice reminder that there are still some people in politics who seem to take their responsibilities seriously.
Well our governor, California, has asked us of a certain age to self- isolate. Not really a problem as I have plenty of toilet paper . Joke but I do. I already have plenty of canned food living in a fire area where they cut off our power in the fire season when it is windy.
I also have pots of herbs wintering over on our porch. The Senior Center is closed but you can order food and they will deliver it to your car. I feel bad for the small businesses in town. I hope they can hold on. As for being alone with Mr Image for a few weeks I think I can keep him entertained as well as the dog. I noted when I drove by yesterday the Indian Casino was in full swing. As they are their own nation they make their own rules.
My son placed a grocery order through Whole Foods for delivery on Friday. They usually have two-hour delivery. They told him due to the virus, delivery would not be until Sunday. This morning he was able to communicate through the internet to the WF picker about noon. But the delivery has yet to arrive. There was perishable meat in the order. He is not happy.
I talked with a neighbor today -- from a safe distance! -- who works for a grocery store, and she says the past few days have been insane, and that there is no produce and no TP to be had. But she says people are being really nice, which is something.
The CA governor has just ordered bars and nightclubs to close, and for restaurants to cut their seating in half. The CDC is recommending there be no gatherings of more than 50 people for the next eight weeks.
New York City schools are closing finally. Kids who rely on schools for their daily meals will continue to receive food on a "grab and go" basis. Don't know what they are going to do about kids who live in homeless shelters that close during the day, though.
Oh joy. Just got a text, and my kid is off school for a month (likely longer). LL will be underfoot continually. And the chance of me having 2 to 4 nephews and nieces underfoot as well has just skyrocketed. Happy times, happy times.
Here is a Slate article about how this crisis is showing how stupid, arbitrary, and unnecessary so many of our rules are, with the following examples: TSA is allowing people to take 12 oz containers of hand sanitizer on airplanes, waiving the usual 4 oz limit for that one thing. Law enforcement officials in some places have stopped jailing people for minor offenses. Government student loan interest accrual will be waived. Internet companies are doing away with data caps and throttling. Some municipalities will stop having police assist with evictions (my local city council will consider a moratorium on evictions when they meet on Tuesday). Local utilities will not shut off service for non-payment (my city's website has instructions for getting your gas turned back on if it's already been shut off). WalMart will provide two weeks of paid leave for employees who get covid-19, and the House has passed legislation with sick leave for some workers.
I'd add another major example: the state of California will move homeless people into empty hotels and motels as well as state-owned trailors.
The takeaway is this:
All over America, the coronavirus is revealing, or at least reminding us, just how much of contemporary American life is bullshit, with power structures built on punishment and fear as opposed to our best interest. Whenever the government or a corporation benevolently withdraws some punitive threat because of the coronavirus, it’s a signal that there was never any good reason for that threat to exist in the first place.
...
And when the time comes that the danger from the virus is no longer as severe, and those people try to quietly reinstate the policies that hurt so many around you, remember that for a lot of Americans, a “return to normal” is a scary prospect. Keep your giant bottle of hand sanitizer. You’re gonna need it to deal with all the bullshit that’s coming back when the pandemic finally passes.
Now that we are in the crisis of our lives, all sorts of things are possible, but I hope we don't just go back to the way things were when this is all over. We usually experience these shitty things as individuals, but now as a group we're looking at how bad our social safety net is and how many cruel policies are simply unnecessary. I hope we learn something.
Effective Tuesday all NYC bars, restaurants, concert venues, theater, and nightclubs will be closed. Restaurants will be allowed to do delivery and take out though.
For those who are DIY inclined, or who live in an area where hoarders have stockpiled all the hand sanitizer, WHO has a guide for making your own [PDF]. This is intended for remote hospitals to make with stuff they have on hand, but you can find these things in your local pharmacy, too. The ingredients are:
Either isopropyl alcohol (99.8%) or ethanol (96%)
Hydrogen peroxide (3%)
Glycerol, a.k.a. glycerin (98%)
Water, either distilled or boiled and then cooled
Since it's intended for hospital use the recipe is for a ten liter batch, but it's easy to scale down to a more reasonable size for family use. BTW, grain alcohol (sold under the brand name "Everclear") is 95% ethanol, which is probably close enough for this purpose. Unfortunately some of these ingredients are also being hoarded at the moment, particularly hydrogen peroxide.
Here in South Africa, as those confirmed with Covid-19 reached 51, President Ramaphosa has declared a national disaster and state of emergency. All schools will close tomorrow, there is a travel ban on visitors from high-risk countries (most of Europe), South Africans are discouraged from local or international travel, two sea ports and 35 land borders are to close, gatherings of more than 100 are prohibited, essential services will remain open, hospitals are to increase capacity, shopping malls and businesses will ensure hygiene control.
One of the biggest challenges here is that people in poorer areas and informal settlements can't self-isolate: no running water to wash hands, only communal taps and ablution blocks or pit latrines, no refrigeration, no electricity, no space for stocking up on food, no money if they miss a day;'s work. And crowds queue every day for buses, trains, taxis in high-density urban areas.
@MaryLouise I feel for your country, because, as you say, for many the virus will just have to go unchecked.
In other silly news, today I must buy pasta and tinned tomatoes for my student daughter in Edinburgh, as her father is going there tomorrow and she says she can't find any (probably that means she can't find any in the Polwarth area).
Wish I could post you some Mousethief. I found 4 1 litre bottles for sale and bought one. I think it's enough to share with the neighbours.
Amazon seems to have a few options but I cannot check properly from the UK coz it keeps telling me that it's not available in my location from Amazon.com...
Grim prediction in the Guardian, from a document from Public Health England. Worst case prediction is 80% infection, and 8% hospitalized. Deaths depend on the rate envisaged, up to 1%. On the bright side, a peak is followed by a decline,
The advice for over 70s sounds different from Shapps, saying that you can walk the dog, "it's about being sensible, and not mixing in crowds". Every story from the govt seems to come in half a dozen flavours.
This from Simon Wren-Lewis is really good analysis of how our government is functioning at the moment and how the lack of accountability over the past few years is at the heart of this.
The last paragraph is definitely correct:
Here we come to the major reason why weak media scrutiny puts this country at far greater risk than elsewhere. We have had 10 years where the NHS has been starved of resources, and the media has been shamelessly repeating the government line that the NHS has been protected. Every medic knows that you cannot keep spending on the NHS constant (even in real terms) and not end up with an NHS crisis. Yet this government spin has been repeated ad nauseam. And then of course we have had Brexit which has robbed the NHS of invaluable doctors and nurses. The government took a huge risk with the NHS by implementing austerity and Brexit, and they could do so because of a largely compliant media. Now many people my age and older could end up paying the ultimate price.
The government is in no way to blame for the pandemic. However they are totally accountable (or should be) for the response.
We are cursed with possibly the least able Prime Minister to deal with this crisis. I spent a lot of 2019 saying that again and again and again and kept being told yeah but Corbyn. It's possible I was and am wrong but I am seriously worried that I'm not. Whatever Corbyn's faults - he would be light years better right now. As would almost anyone.
Do you have anyone to support you with self isolation GK ?
Thank you for asking! In some ways, it's an amped-up version of what I already do, due to chronic illnesses. Normally, I generally get out once a week for appointments and errands. I have most of my groceries delivered from a supermarket; I periodically get some non-perishables online; and, once in a while, I get to Trader Joe's, a wonderful grocery store. (To paraphrase "Welcome To Night Vale", "All Praise Trader Joe's!" )
I had groceries delivered Sunday. I wore gloves. The gloveless delivery person, when I asked, said yes, they'd been given gloves, but it was a pain to put them on for each delivery,
Do you have anyone to support you with self isolation GK ?
Thank you for asking! In some ways, it's an amped-up version of what I already do, due to chronic illnesses. Normally, I generally get out once a week for appointments and errands. I have most of my groceries delivered from a supermarket; I periodically get some non-perishables online; and, once in a while, I get to Trader Joe's, a wonderful grocery store. (To paraphrase "Welcome To Night Vale", "All Praise Trader Joe's!" )
I had groceries delivered Sunday. I wore gloves. The gloveless delivery person, when I asked, said yes, they'd been given gloves, but it was a pain to put them on for each delivery. They were out of some things, but I've got enough for maybe 7-10 days, And I have some canned stuff on hand.
No, I don't have anyone here to help me out. As long as I can continue doing what I'm doing, I should be ok. Though shopping online on Sunday was quite a trip. Lots and lots of "currently not available", and some people charging insane prices for what was available.
I need to go out (nearby) in the next few days to pick up a prescription, and I'll see what's available in the drugstore. (This is an American-style drugstore, with lots of things *besides* the pharmacy.)
If anyone here is in the habit of sharing stuff they've not fact and source checked, would you please stop? Thanks. Share pictures of kittens or something.
If anyone here is in the habit of sharing stuff they've not fact and source checked, would you please stop? Thanks. Share pictures of kittens or something.
If anyone here is in the habit of sharing stuff they've not fact and source checked, would you please stop? Thanks. Share pictures of kittens or something.
I haven't actually seen anyone do that, but I'll keep an eye out for that or any irresistible urges to be bossy, which according to my source* is one of the first symptoms.
Strange, the local corner shop has loo rolls, pasta, paracetamol, etc., whereas the local supermarket looks like locusts have swept through it. But the local guy is rationing people, very sensible.
And it's in his own interests, of course - he would find it (probably) very difficult to restock his empty shelves...
I hope peeps will remember, when the crisis is over, that the local guy was sensible (even if his stuff might be a bit more expensive). Maybe it's time to start using the local guy's emporium more frequently, so, having said which, I shall do just that on my next expedition!
If anyone here is in the habit of sharing stuff they've not fact and source checked, would you please stop? Thanks. Share pictures of kittens or something.
Yeah, so many bullshit memes being spread, mostly by people from the older age group it seems. I just can't understand how you can read these things an not (a) wonder why it's coming from Randy McRandomface of Bumfuck Nebraska rather than a reputable source and (b) not read the "advice" and think it's suspicious in itself.
If anyone here is in the habit of sharing stuff they've not fact and source checked, would you please stop? Thanks. Share pictures of kittens or something.
Yeah, so many bullshit memes being spread, mostly by people from the older age group it seems. I just can't understand how you can read these things an not (a) wonder why it's coming from Randy McRandomface of Bumfuck Nebraska rather than a reputable source and (b) not read the "advice" and think it's suspicious in itself.
One thing about that particular one is it seems that this particular doctor has hundreds of nieces and nephews, as all the culprits seem to cut and paste.
If anyone here is in the habit of sharing stuff they've not fact and source checked, would you please stop? Thanks. Share pictures of kittens or something.
Yeah, so many bullshit memes being spread, mostly by people from the older age group it seems. I just can't understand how you can read these things an not (a) wonder why it's coming from Randy McRandomface of Bumfuck Nebraska rather than a reputable source and (b) not read the "advice" and think it's suspicious in itself.
There is a good reason for this: the governments of the UK and the US are not putting out clear, consistent, accurate and transparent information. Boris and The Donald have shown themselves consistently to be neither competent nor trustworthy. There is a little bit of work that is needed in order to identify a reputable source...
Our governments have spent years undermining truth.
Comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51898288
Of course. People have touched the merchandise from crop pickers to sorters to truck drivers to factory workers to packagers to distributors to people who stock the shelves in the market -- I've just cut out the cashier and bagger by going through the self-check, but I figure the fewer handlers the better and the amount of time that has passed from their touch and my home the better.
I'm curious to see how the English advice is phrased? Will it be a legal requirement?
https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51895873
I don't see how it could be enforced. What would They do to Granny, if she (feeling quite well) ventured out to (for example) buy her copy of the Daily Wail ? Shoot her dead? Even just arresting her, supposing her crime to be detected, and escorting her back home would take a fair bit of Police or Army time/work...
It is hard to avoid the conclusion that they leaked the initial policy to Peston, and then calibrated it for the public reaction they saw.
They think we're all as daft as They are.
I recognise the arguments against starting too soon, but we've thought it all through. Self isolation includes support for my wife's 95 year old already housebound parents, who live within close walking distance.
We can do this.
Some years ago I set up a system for deliveries to my housebound mother 60 miles away. I set up an account with Tesco on my PC, using her name and address and credit card number. No problem at all.
A week ago she called to see me, asking for my help in getting her child into the school of her choice. Am I being cynical....
Does it matter? If you can do some good for her and she can do some good for you where is the lose?
AFF
I am not criticising these initiatives - they seem necessary - it’s just very mind bending.
No - she needs you to last at least until you sign the paperwork for the local authority
I need to start making a list of older people on their own that I know. There are quite a few, what with church, homeless project etc etc.
I'm only just starting to think about what this might be like in the developing world. I've only got as far as 'Lord have mercy'.
I was interested to see a man whose cart was loaded, not only with toilet paper, but also paper napkins.
The developing world, other things being equal, might not be as badly affected by the virus as you fear though - but for very sad reasons.
Take the most populous country in Africa - Nigeria - for example. The average life expectancy is around 56, and so there are fewer elderly people to be at risk from the virus. Around 3% of the population of Nigeria are 65 and over. In the UK, by comparison, it is around 20% - and in Italy around 23%.
Of course, that exposes a whole lot of other difficult questions about inequalities between the west and the developing world, but let’s pray they will be able to reduce contact and risk for their (relatively) small proportion of elders effectively. Lord knows they won’t have substantial healthcare resources to fall back on though, so I guess we are not done with the Kyries yet.
I have always thought that I look handsome in the right lighting; that is, a single candle at a distance of about 50 feet.
I hope you find a good workaround and support if you need it though, @Firenze
There is no testing generally available. The rule is that you stay home for 14 days at least if you have any symptoms at all, and if a family member does. Just like the prime minister of Canada is doing whose wife tested positive, and just like the leader of the New Democratic Party is because he has symptoms, which he tweets are probably not Covid-19 but the protocol is 14 days so he's doing it.
In other news, French perfume manufacturers are turning over factories to making hand sanitiser and disinfectant.
In the uk they are requesting final year med students to volunteer and pulling the clinical academics out of the universities to treat in the hospitals.
Same here, mine is five years younger, but he has heart trouble and takes blood thinners. I think he's at higher risk, but I've just never been able to tell him anything. A few minutes ago he left to go to his usual bar because I made the mistake of telling him that the governor said the bars and restaurants were all going to close indefinitely after 9 o'clock tonight.
Our Ohio governor has been wonderful through all this. It's a nice reminder that there are still some people in politics who seem to take their responsibilities seriously.
I also have pots of herbs wintering over on our porch. The Senior Center is closed but you can order food and they will deliver it to your car. I feel bad for the small businesses in town. I hope they can hold on. As for being alone with Mr Image for a few weeks I think I can keep him entertained as well as the dog. I noted when I drove by yesterday the Indian Casino was in full swing. As they are their own nation they make their own rules.
The CA governor has just ordered bars and nightclubs to close, and for restaurants to cut their seating in half. The CDC is recommending there be no gatherings of more than 50 people for the next eight weeks.
A county-wide lockdown can't come too soon.
I'd add another major example: the state of California will move homeless people into empty hotels and motels as well as state-owned trailors.
The takeaway is this:
Now that we are in the crisis of our lives, all sorts of things are possible, but I hope we don't just go back to the way things were when this is all over. We usually experience these shitty things as individuals, but now as a group we're looking at how bad our social safety net is and how many cruel policies are simply unnecessary. I hope we learn something.
For those who are DIY inclined, or who live in an area where hoarders have stockpiled all the hand sanitizer, WHO has a guide for making your own [PDF]. This is intended for remote hospitals to make with stuff they have on hand, but you can find these things in your local pharmacy, too. The ingredients are:
Since it's intended for hospital use the recipe is for a ten liter batch, but it's easy to scale down to a more reasonable size for family use. BTW, grain alcohol (sold under the brand name "Everclear") is 95% ethanol, which is probably close enough for this purpose. Unfortunately some of these ingredients are also being hoarded at the moment, particularly hydrogen peroxide.
In other news, Guatemala just became the first country in the world to ban Americans in order to limit the spread of Coronavirus.
🧐
One of the biggest challenges here is that people in poorer areas and informal settlements can't self-isolate: no running water to wash hands, only communal taps and ablution blocks or pit latrines, no refrigeration, no electricity, no space for stocking up on food, no money if they miss a day;'s work. And crowds queue every day for buses, trains, taxis in high-density urban areas.
In other silly news, today I must buy pasta and tinned tomatoes for my student daughter in Edinburgh, as her father is going there tomorrow and she says she can't find any (probably that means she can't find any in the Polwarth area).
Amazon seems to have a few options but I cannot check properly from the UK coz it keeps telling me that it's not available in my location from Amazon.com...
The last paragraph is definitely correct:
The government is in no way to blame for the pandemic. However they are totally accountable (or should be) for the response.
We are cursed with possibly the least able Prime Minister to deal with this crisis. I spent a lot of 2019 saying that again and again and again and kept being told yeah but Corbyn. It's possible I was and am wrong but I am seriously worried that I'm not. Whatever Corbyn's faults - he would be light years better right now. As would almost anyone.
AFZ
Thank you for asking!
I had groceries delivered Sunday. I wore gloves. The gloveless delivery person, when I asked, said yes, they'd been given gloves, but it was a pain to put them on for each delivery,
Doublethink--
Thank you for asking!
I had groceries delivered Sunday. I wore gloves. The gloveless delivery person, when I asked, said yes, they'd been given gloves, but it was a pain to put them on for each delivery. They were out of some things, but I've got enough for maybe 7-10 days, And I have some canned stuff on hand.
No, I don't have anyone here to help me out. As long as I can continue doing what I'm doing, I should be ok. Though shopping online on Sunday was quite a trip. Lots and lots of "currently not available", and some people charging insane prices for what was available.
I need to go out (nearby) in the next few days to pick up a prescription, and I'll see what's available in the drugstore. (This is an American-style drugstore, with lots of things *besides* the pharmacy.)
Running out of editing time, so I'll stop here.
This one's popular: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/03/05/uncle-coronavirus/
If anyone here is in the habit of sharing stuff they've not fact and source checked, would you please stop? Thanks. Share pictures of kittens or something.
OK
https://twitter.com/alienfromzog/status/1239448293186428928?s=19
Whilst I know quite a lot about virology, it is not really my area hence I have and am being careful in what I post both here and elsewhere.
I am personally checking the WHO bulletins. Partly because the emails from the hospital I work in have thus far not been helpful.
AFZ
I haven't actually seen anyone do that, but I'll keep an eye out for that or any irresistible urges to be bossy, which according to my source* is one of the first symptoms.
* The Walmart break room.
I hope peeps will remember, when the crisis is over, that the local guy was sensible (even if his stuff might be a bit more expensive). Maybe it's time to start using the local guy's emporium more frequently, so, having said which, I shall do just that on my next expedition!
Yeah, so many bullshit memes being spread, mostly by people from the older age group it seems. I just can't understand how you can read these things an not (a) wonder why it's coming from Randy McRandomface of Bumfuck Nebraska rather than a reputable source and (b) not read the "advice" and think it's suspicious in itself.
One thing about that particular one is it seems that this particular doctor has hundreds of nieces and nephews, as all the culprits seem to cut and paste.
There is a good reason for this: the governments of the UK and the US are not putting out clear, consistent, accurate and transparent information. Boris and The Donald have shown themselves consistently to be neither competent nor trustworthy. There is a little bit of work that is needed in order to identify a reputable source...
Our governments have spent years undermining truth.
AFZ