Not a good time for the Conservative government in the UK

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  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Ariel wrote: »
    Cameron is an experienced politician, which is what Sunak needs at this time - someone to rely on, inasmuch as anyone can rely on anyone in politics.
    With proven skills at dodging responsibility, so fitting for the position of Foreign Secretary as Little England shuts out the world and backs away from any responsibility for or assistance in world affairs.

    Given the nature of some of our "assistance" over the last 1/4 century the rest of the world may be recalling Attlee's words to Harold Laski.
  • Ariel wrote: »
    Cameron is an experienced politician, which is what Sunak needs at this time - someone to rely on, inasmuch as anyone can rely on anyone in politics.
    With proven skills at dodging responsibility, so fitting for the position of Foreign Secretary as Little England shuts out the world and backs away from any responsibility for or assistance in world affairs.

    Given the nature of some of our "assistance" over the last 1/4 century the rest of the world may be recalling Attlee's words to Harold Laski.

    "Thank you for your letter, contents of which have been noted"?
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    edited November 2023
    Oh, well, whoever gets in, it's still likely to be orcward for the duration.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    stetson wrote: »
    Ariel wrote: »
    Cameron is an experienced politician, which is what Sunak needs at this time - someone to rely on, inasmuch as anyone can rely on anyone in politics.
    With proven skills at dodging responsibility, so fitting for the position of Foreign Secretary as Little England shuts out the world and backs away from any responsibility for or assistance in world affairs.

    Given the nature of some of our "assistance" over the last 1/4 century the rest of the world may be recalling Attlee's words to Harold Laski.

    "Thank you for your letter, contents of which have been noted"?

    I was thinking "a period of silence on your part would be welcome".
  • Ariel wrote: »
    Oh, well, whoever gets in, it's still likely to be orcward for the duration.

    Oh very good. One might hope that Mordors are closed for Cruella now. But I might be accused of trolling.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Ariel wrote: »
    Oh, well, whoever gets in, it's still likely to be orcward for the duration.

    Oh very good. One might hope that Mordors are closed for Cruella now. But I might be accused of trolling.

    Don't let it become a hobbit.
  • Ariel wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Ariel wrote: »
    Oh, well, whoever gets in, it's still likely to be orcward for the duration.

    Oh very good. One might hope that Mordors are closed for Cruella now. But I might be accused of trolling.

    Don't let it become a hobbit.

    What are you guys tolkien about?
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    Ooo no more Coffey.
  • Our new Home Secretary is known in some quarters as Jimmy Dimly...
    :lol:

    O, and latest news is that Coffey has resigned, saying that it's the right time for her to leave the government. She forgets to say that it was never the right time for her to join the government...
    :disappointed:

    The reshuffling of the deckchairs continues, but I don't think we're any nearer to God.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    edited November 2023
    Our new Home Secretary is known in some quarters as Jimmy Dimly...
    :lol:

    O, and latest news is that Coffey has resigned, saying that it's the right time for her to leave the government. She forgets to say that it was never the right time for her to join the government...
    :disappointed:

    The reshuffling of the deckchairs continues, but I don't think we're any nearer to God.

    No, just nearer to Starmer (caught between the devil and the deep blue sea). Which is which is left as an exercise for the reader.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Ariel wrote: »
    Cameron is an experienced politician, which is what Sunak needs at this time - someone to rely on, inasmuch as anyone can rely on anyone in politics.
    With proven skills at dodging responsibility, so fitting for the position of Foreign Secretary as Little England shuts out the world and backs away from any responsibility for or assistance in world affairs.

    Wait a sec, just finishing my coffee here and getting to the international news ... the guy who gave you the Brexit vote is the new foreign secretary?!?

    And I didn't realize cabinet ministers could come from - or in this instance, go to - the House of Lords. Is that weird? Awkward? Or just kind of unusual?
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Ariel wrote: »
    Cameron is an experienced politician, which is what Sunak needs at this time - someone to rely on, inasmuch as anyone can rely on anyone in politics.
    With proven skills at dodging responsibility, so fitting for the position of Foreign Secretary as Little England shuts out the world and backs away from any responsibility for or assistance in world affairs.

    Wait a sec, just finishing my coffee here and getting to the international news ... the guy who gave you the Brexit vote is the new foreign secretary?!?

    And I didn't realize cabinet ministers could come from - or in this instance, go to - the House of Lords. Is that weird? Awkward? Or just kind of unusual?

    It's not particularly usual. From what I can gather nothing in the unwritten constitution prevents someone from outside Parliament being a minister, but the ministerial code sort of expects them to be, so they've given him a peerage and sent him up to the Lords.

  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    Wait a sec, just finishing my coffee here and getting to the international news ... the guy who gave you the Brexit vote is the new foreign secretary?!?
    The Tory party has finally scraped the bottom of the barrel and has now resorted to the ones that floated to the top.
    Cameron did campaign against Brexit. In comparison to the rest of the present Tory Party campaigning against your own referendum and losing looks like sanity and competence.
    And I didn't realize cabinet ministers could come from - or in this instance, go to - the House of Lords. Is that weird? Awkward? Or just kind of unusual?
    It used to be fairly common I think. The practice gradually died out because of the bad democratic optics, over the course of the last century, but it's never been formally forbidden.

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited November 2023
    @Ruth

    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    stetson wrote: »
    @Ruth

    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.

    Yep. Prime Ministers only ever call a referendum if they’re confident the vote will go the way they want it.
  • To be fair to Cameron he does have some concept of public duty and public service. It says something that Sunak has to dip back to the Cameron era to find a modicum of human decency within his own party.

    On the peerage thing, Lord Carrington springs to mind as an example from Thatcher's Cabinet.

    The reality is that Boris purged anyone able and capable from his front bench that the only possible way forward for Sunak is to draw on the past.

    This is a government in melt down.
  • Our new Home Secretary is known in some quarters as Jimmy Dimly...
    :lol:

    O, and latest news is that Coffey has resigned, saying that it's the right time for her to leave the government. She forgets to say that it was never the right time for her to join the government...
    :disappointed:

    The reshuffling of the deckchairs continues, but I don't think we're any nearer to God.

    No, just nearer to Starmer (caught between the devil and the deep blue sea). Which is which is left as an exercise for the reader.

    I hear what you say, but what viable alternative to Labour is there? The LibDems have been doing well, but it seems unlikely that they will be strong enough to form a government, come the next General Election.

    The thought of the loathsome tories continuing to shit all over us is indescribably horrible...
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    Ariel wrote: »
    Cameron is an experienced politician, which is what Sunak needs at this time - someone to rely on, inasmuch as anyone can rely on anyone in politics.
    With proven skills at dodging responsibility, so fitting for the position of Foreign Secretary as Little England shuts out the world and backs away from any responsibility for or assistance in world affairs.

    Wait a sec, just finishing my coffee here and getting to the international news ... the guy who gave you the Brexit vote is the new foreign secretary?!?

    And I didn't realize cabinet ministers could come from - or in this instance, go to - the House of Lords. Is that weird? Awkward? Or just kind of unusual?
    Our new Home Secretary is known in some quarters as Jimmy Dimly...
    :lol:

    O, and latest news is that Coffey has resigned, saying that it's the right time for her to leave the government. She forgets to say that it was never the right time for her to join the government...
    :disappointed:

    The reshuffling of the deckchairs continues, but I don't think we're any nearer to God.

    No, just nearer to Starmer (caught between the devil and the deep blue sea). Which is which is left as an exercise for the reader.

    I hear what you say, but what viable alternative to Labour is there?

    A minority Labour government moderated by the humane impulses of the SNP would be nice, but trying to engineer that is a mug's game.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Ariel wrote: »
    Cameron is an experienced politician, which is what Sunak needs at this time - someone to rely on, inasmuch as anyone can rely on anyone in politics.
    With proven skills at dodging responsibility, so fitting for the position of Foreign Secretary as Little England shuts out the world and backs away from any responsibility for or assistance in world affairs.

    Wait a sec, just finishing my coffee here and getting to the international news ... the guy who gave you the Brexit vote is the new foreign secretary?!?

    And I didn't realize cabinet ministers could come from - or in this instance, go to - the House of Lords. Is that weird? Awkward? Or just kind of unusual?
    Our new Home Secretary is known in some quarters as Jimmy Dimly...
    :lol:

    O, and latest news is that Coffey has resigned, saying that it's the right time for her to leave the government. She forgets to say that it was never the right time for her to join the government...
    :disappointed:

    The reshuffling of the deckchairs continues, but I don't think we're any nearer to God.

    No, just nearer to Starmer (caught between the devil and the deep blue sea). Which is which is left as an exercise for the reader.

    I hear what you say, but what viable alternative to Labour is there?

    A minority Labour government moderated by the humane impulses of the SNP would be nice, but trying to engineer that is a mug's game.

    Well, fair enough - as you say, though, possibly not really likely.

    At least today has seen the defenestration of two of the more egregious tories - Braverman and Coffey - who will now doubtless employ their time pissing on Sushi from the back benches.

    I apologise for the ghastly mental image this conjures up.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Not a ghastly image at all. In fact, it’s a mental image that really cheers me up.
  • I wonder how much time the pair of them will actually spend in the Commons? Coffey is idle (so it is said), and Cruella will probably be out and about drumming up more support from her adoring swivel-eyed loons.

    BTW, rumour has it that Niggle The Garbage may be about to appear on *I'm a Nonentity Celebrity*, so perhaps Cruella will head off down to Oz as well...
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I hadn't realised until today that wags on The Platform Formerly Known As Twitter had dubbed Coffey "Nellie the Effluent" which has resulted in the predictable refrain on her departure. Describing the cabinet as a circus seems altogether too generous, however.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    edited November 2023
    Andrea Jenkyns has submitted a letter of no confidence in Rishi Sunak.

    There would need to be a lot more to have any real effect though.
  • Here's a clip from the Guardian:

    Tory MP Andrea Jenkyns - a Boris Johnson loyalist - said she has submitted a letter of no confidence in Rishi Sunak following Monday’s reshuffle.

    In a post on X, formerly Twitter, she said:

    Enough is enough, I have submitted my vote of no confidence letter to the Chairman of the 1922. It is time for Rishi Sunak to go and replace him with a ‘real’ Conservative party leader.

    In a letter to 1922 Committee chairman Sir Graham Brady, Jenkyns said that “enough is enough”. She continued:

    If it wasn’t bad enough that we have a party leader that the party members rejected, the polls demonstrate that the public reject him, and I am in full agreement. It is time for Rishi Sunak to go
    .

    Sushi Rinak, your time is up. General Election NOW (or immediately after Yule, anyway).
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.

    Yes, I followed it pretty closely at the time. It's just a little stunning to this outsider that someone who made such a huge own goal is back in the government. And that someone who so massively misjudged the mood of the electorate comes back when the next general election is coming up. Is he likely to stay in the position through January 2025?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    edited November 2023
    Ruth wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.

    Yes, I followed it pretty closely at the time. It's just a little stunning to this outsider that someone who made such a huge own goal is back in the government. And that someone who so massively misjudged the mood of the electorate comes back when the next general election is coming up. Is he likely to stay in the position through January 2025?

    I've seen strong suggestions that Cameron's return means that Sunak will be hanging on as long as possible before the next election as he wouldn't have stirred himself for a 5 month stint.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.

    Yes, I followed it pretty closely at the time. It's just a little stunning to this outsider that someone who made such a huge own goal is back in the government. And that someone who so massively misjudged the mood of the electorate comes back when the next general election is coming up. Is he likely to stay in the position through January 2025?

    Desperation. Sunak needs an experienced politician in the Cabinet, and one that will help to give a more moderate impression after the excesses of Braverman and Patel. Also, Cameron, having made his own goal, will not be in a position to call another such. Sunak might though.

    I don't think Cameron went down too badly in Europe (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) and there are Party members who will like him and see this as a good thing. It might make them more inclined to vote Conservative at the next election if Sunak can get a few more such on board - God only knows who though.

    And I haven't ruled it out that they might well get back in again, though the Cameron influence might put an element of the anti-tents/boats brigade off.
  • stetson wrote: »
    @Ruth

    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.

    Not sure I buy that. Before the whole referendum debacle, Cameron went to Brussels to negotiate a "better deal for the UK". What he got were transparently meaningless gestures, so I find it easy to describe that as a failure of foreign affairs as well as a domestic disaster.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited November 2023
    If the best Wishi-Washi can come up with is Big Dave - Here To Save, then we are in really, really, deep brown cacky.

    Desperation mixed with insanity, indeed.
  • stetson wrote: »
    @Ruth

    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.

    The result of the referendum proved that the decision to have the vote was what the people wanted. The screw up was not to have plans in place to deal with the result.

    I hear what you say, but what viable alternative to Labour is there? The LibDems have been doing well, but it seems unlikely that they will be strong enough to form a government, come the next General Election.
    The LibDems might be strong enough to form a Rugby Union team
    If the best Wishi-Washi can come up with is Big Dave - Here To Save, then we are in really, really, deep brown cacky.

    Desperation mixed with insanity, indeed.

    He prefers Lord Dave, but his chums can just call him Dave,
  • and then we have Esther McVey. Minister for Gammon.

    The last wisp of breath has left the body of satired.
  • O! how long must we continue to endure this madness?

    Yes, I know - be careful what you wish for, but surely this crowd of zombies should be put out of its (or our) misery as soon as possible.
  • ArielAriel Shipmate
    When did we suddenly acquire a Ministry for Common Sense?

    They can start by sacking themselves.
  • Some of them are doing that already, it seems - unless Nellie the Effluent was advised to resign...
  • To be fair to Cameron he does have some concept of public duty and public service.

    That's the chap who wanted to be PM because he 'thought he'd be rather good at it' and spent the years after his resignation lobbying ministers on behalf of a financial firm that collapsed?
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    edited November 2023
    That statement's probably true in comparison to some of the current house.

    Edited to say I mean Gamma Gamaliel's statement.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I read somewhere that Greasy-Smug is spitting tacks at Cameron's return and moaning that it means "Remain have won".

    Every cloud has a silver lining ... :naughty:
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Ariel wrote: »
    When did we suddenly acquire a Ministry for Common Sense?

    They can start by sacking themselves.

    Quite. Right now I'd settle for a minister with common sense. Instead we have a minister for tilting at windmills.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited November 2023
    Minister for bigotry would have been a more accurate title, but I suspect it’s a sop to the right and she’ll have little real power.

    She’ll probably put a statement any minute now about how she’s battled for the right to say Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited November 2023
    @chrisstiles
    That's the chap who wanted to be PM because he 'thought he'd be rather good at it'...?

    Actually, I quite sincerely like that answer. If it was given by someone whose politics I support, it would be all the more reason for me to vote for him.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Part of me is speculating that this might be a subtler move by Sunak than the media might suspect, that he's intentionally chosen to appoint Cameron as the ultimate dead cat to spike the capacity of Braverman and lesser mortals to make capital from their evictions.

  • Enoch wrote: »
    Part of me is speculating that this might be a subtler move by Sunak than the media might suspect, that he's intentionally chosen to appoint Cameron as the ultimate dead cat to spike the capacity of Braverman and lesser mortals to make capital from their evictions.

    You may well be right.

    There might not be much time between now and the General Election for Big Lord Dave to prove much of a help, but he probably won't be as much of a hindrance as Cruella and her loons.
  • To be fair to Cameron he does have some concept of public duty and public service.

    That's the chap who wanted to be PM because he 'thought he'd be rather good at it' and spent the years after his resignation lobbying ministers on behalf of a financial firm that collapsed?

    Sure, I didn't say he was beyond reproach. In comparison with those who succeeded him though ...
  • If you are going to publish your letter to the 1922 committee, it would be a good idea to ensure that you have proof read it first.

    Especially if the highlight of your parliamentary CV is a brief stint in the Department for Education.

    Otherwise social media will have a field day with the GCSE marking descriptors and the letter's use as in "spot the grammatical error" exercises.
  • Pendragon wrote: »
    If you are going to publish your letter to the 1922 committee, it would be a good idea to ensure that you have proof read it first.

    Especially if the highlight of your parliamentary CV is a brief stint in the Department for Education.

    Otherwise social media will have a field day with the GCSE marking descriptors and the letter's use as in "spot the grammatical error" exercises.

    To whom or what are you referring here?
  • Enoch wrote: »
    Part of me is speculating that this might be a subtler move by Sunak than the media might suspect, that he's intentionally chosen to appoint Cameron as the ultimate dead cat to spike the capacity of Braverman and lesser mortals to make capital from their evictions.

    It might be dead catting this: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67385385
  • Ruth wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.

    Yes, I followed it pretty closely at the time. It's just a little stunning to this outsider that someone who made such a huge own goal is back in the government. And that someone who so massively misjudged the mood of the electorate comes back when the next general election is coming up. Is he likely to stay in the position through January 2025?

    On waking (in Australia) to this news, I admit I was stunned by the idea that the enabler of the greatest foreign policy disaster in a generation would be the new foreign secretary. There was, after all, no good reason to hold a Brexit referendum apart from internal party rivalries. Whether it was a foreign-affairs screw-up or a domestic policy screw-up doesn't seem very relevant. It's hard to see how he will be taken seriously by anyone in Europe, or for that matter the foreign secretaries of anywhere else. Even if he is slightly saner than some of his (now) cabinet colleagues.

  • Marama wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    In Cameron's defense, the decision to hold the brexit vote was, technically speaking, not a foreign-affairs screw-up, it was a domestic policy screw-up. He opposed brexit, but hoped that the referendum would crush the idea once and for all. So he essentially misjudged the mood of the eletorate.

    Yes, I followed it pretty closely at the time. It's just a little stunning to this outsider that someone who made such a huge own goal is back in the government. And that someone who so massively misjudged the mood of the electorate comes back when the next general election is coming up. Is he likely to stay in the position through January 2025?

    On waking (in Australia) to this news, I admit I was stunned by the idea that the enabler of the greatest foreign policy disaster in a generation would be the new foreign secretary. There was, after all, no good reason to hold a Brexit referendum apart from internal party rivalries. Whether it was a foreign-affairs screw-up or a domestic policy screw-up doesn't seem very relevant. It's hard to see how he will be taken seriously by anyone in Europe, or for that matter the foreign secretaries of anywhere else. Even if he is slightly saner than some of his (now) cabinet colleagues.

    I think this is the problem though - who is there who could be taken seriously?
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    I don’t think the Brexit referendum was ever originally intended to go ahead. The theory that I heard was that Cameron and his cronies were expecting another hung parliament and to continue their coalition with the FibDems. With coalitions, parties always have to compromise, so Dodgy Dave put the referendum in the 2015 Tory manifesto thinking he’d have to drop it to keep the FibDems happy. When he unexpectedly won a majority he had no option but to go ahead.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    He still had options.

    He could have delayed holding the referendum for a few years on the basis of their being more pressing business for government. If delayed long enough it wouldn't be the first manifesto commitment that didn't make it through to Parliament.

    He could have asked the Eurosceptic wing of his party (with or without input from UKIP) to draw up a manifesto for leaving the EU - including what future arrangement with the EU they'd seek - before putting it to the people.

    I don't know why he took the option of going ahead with a vote so quickly. It could be he was so convinced Remain would win that he wanted it out of the way, clearing the issue and shutting up the ERG for the rest of the Parliament. It could be he was scared that not going ahead asap the ERG would hinder the rest of his programme.
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