Not a good time for the Conservative government in the UK

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  • The reality is that 99% of the time 99% of MPs vote for their party line. They are strongly encouraged to do so, and it is the route to promotion. Troublesome sorts do not get ministerial jobs or the shadow equivalent.

    Now there is another side to being an MP. You could, in principle, be a Nazi but still be very good at getting Mr Smith a Council house, or talking the Justice Secretary into reviewing a questionable conviction, or persuading the Executive Headteacher of Crook Academy not to expel little Johnny but give him another chance.

    These things are important to individuals. But I submit that the laws Parliament passes and the policies governments develop (often, as in the case of the Rwanda scheme, quite independent of anything promised in their manifesto) are way, way more important to the collective. Any MP should do the individual cases part of their job - they should not be praised for it, but condemned if they fail - as some do!
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Sighthound wrote: »
    Any MP should do the individual cases part of their job - they should not be praised for it, but condemned if they fail - as some do!

    I agree it is what they are paid for. I have certain standards of food cooking and health regulations that I have to follow. It is part of my job to produce safe food for my customers. I don’t get praise for doing that. It is expected. The same goes for MPs. They have things they have to do.
  • That applies to any political party. There are Greens who don't agree with every single aspect of their Party's policies. Lib Dems the same. The issue is one of 'best fit' rather than necessarily agreeing with absolutely everything one's particular political party says or does.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2024
    Spike wrote: »

    Cruella Braverman's idea. gods damn her to Hell in a wet shop doorway, being pissed on by passers-by.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    That applies to any political party. There are Greens who don't agree with every single aspect of their Party's policies. Lib Dems the same. The issue is one of 'best fit' rather than necessarily agreeing with absolutely everything one's particular political party says or does.
    That's true of anyone. No one will agree 100% with any party, unless it's a party they founded and they have absolute authority to dictate policy. For everyone else it's a question of what's the best fit at this point in time.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Spike wrote: »

    I am a bit confused. I thought that the Vagrancy Act 1824 was still relevant.
  • That applies to any political party. There are Greens who don't agree with every single aspect of their Party's policies. Lib Dems the same. The issue is one of 'best fit' rather than necessarily agreeing with absolutely everything one's particular political party says or does.
    That's true of anyone. No one will agree 100% with any party, unless it's a party they founded and they have absolute authority to dictate policy. For everyone else it's a question of what's the best fit at this point in time.

    Yes, and it seems that many (most?) people think that the tories are emphatically not the best fit at this point in time.

    General Election in June, please, if the chief of the gods would be so kind as to wake up:

    The chief of the gods of Pegāna is MĀNA-YOOD-SUSHA̅I̅, who created the other gods and then fell asleep; when he wakes, he "will make again new gods and other worlds, and will destroy the gods whom he hath made." Men may pray to "all the gods but one"; only the gods themselves may pray to MĀNA-YOOD-SUSHA̅I̅.
    Telford wrote: »
    Spike wrote: »

    I am a bit confused. I thought that the Vagrancy Act 1824 was still relevant.

    It's still applicable in England (I don't think relevant is an appropriate word!), but was AIUI repealed in Scotland as far back as 1982.
  • SighthoundSighthound Shipmate
    edited April 2024
    I suspect the underlying problem is that whoever is in power is effectively managing decline. The Tories' objective in such circumstances is to protect the interests of the mega-rich and, very much secondarily, such other groups as will still vote for them. (I have a term in mind, but it might be a bit harsh and unfair so I shall not use it.)

    Decline can only be managed fairly by protecting the weakest rather than the richest, so Labour is, in theory, better qualified to do it. Whether they will is another matter.

    Reversing decline is easier said than done as Emperor Franz Joseph discovered. (I do see parallels between the UK and the former Austro-Hungary. Both declining, former great powers, living on the 'glory' of the past, but ultimately quite fragile.) Having fancy uniforms and marching up and down does not cut it.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    I don't think the UK is necessarily in decline. Or rather it wasn't before austerity and Brexit. In terms of global influence, yes, but in terms of economic resources there's more to go round.
    (Global heating and other environmental problems should be a concern but they needn't have been a problem with the political will to address them.)
    But yes, Tory policies are certainly in the interests of protecting their peers in the short-term against the effects of the decline brought about by their policies.
  • Whether or not the country itself is in decline, though austerity and the Brexit lunacy have taken (and are taking) their toll, the tory party seems to be on the road to electoral oblivion (at last!):

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/04/rishi-sunak-conservatives-tory-defeat
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    edited April 2024
    I week ago a poll put ther Conservatives on 98 seats. A more recent poll based on different criteria gives them 155 seats. Still a massive defeat.

    After the election a gloom will descend on all the land apart from Somerset where the weather will remain magnificient.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Telford wrote: »
    I week ago a poll put ther Conservatives on 98 seats. A more recent poll based on different criteria gives them 155 seats. Still a massive defeat.

    After the election a gloom will descend on all the land apart from Somerset where the weather will remain magnificient.

    Haha - I hope so!

  • Polls are notoriously unreliable, albeit improving in accuracy, but even the most optimistic seem to spell Doom for the tories.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/05/how-accurate-are-mrp-polls-predicting-huge-tory-losses-in-next-general-election

    Meanwhile, the tories continue to shoot themselves in the feet, the latest idiot being William Wragg. Who in their right mind would want to see intimate pictures of him, anyway? No wonder there are calls for his resignation - although it appears that there are other (so far un-named) MPs involved, and a police investigation is in progress.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/05/conservative-tory-mp-william-wragg-to-keep-whip-investigation
  • Who in their right mind would want to see intimate pictures of him, anyway?

    Old people have sex. Ugly people have sex.

    These nude pictures seem to be in the context of the app "Grindr", which as I understand it is a facility for men to arrange for sexual contact with other men. I'm not familiar with what is considered normal in the casual sex hookup scene, but would guess that naked photos that demonstrate "this is what you're going to get if we do this" aren't terribly unusual.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I think you might be missing part of the point, LC.

    Apparently to appease the "blackmailer", Wragg gave them phone numbers of several of his colleagues - surely that must be some sort of security breach?

    Anyway, someone who doesn't have the wit to not send intimate pictures of himself to a total stranger presumably also doesn't have the brains to be an MP.

    [tangent]
    Am I alone in finding the expression "keep the whip" wryly amusing in situations like this? :naughty:
    [/tangent]
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited April 2024
    I think it’s very common in modern dating. That said, if the tabloids didn’t try to pretend mps are sexless, his contacts on Grindr wouldn’t be able to blackmail him.

    And now the police should prosecute whomever blackmailed him. He is the victim of a crime and I was pleased to see the other parties refuse to make political capital out of this, and Jeremy Hunt give his public support.

    This is basically the threat of revenge porn (which would also be illegal).
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2024
    Who in their right mind would want to see intimate pictures of him, anyway?

    Old people have sex. Ugly people have sex.

    <snip>

    You are quite right, of course, and I withdraw my unkind and gratuitous remark.

    As @Doublethink says, Wragg is the victim of a crime, however stupid he may have been...

    Poor old Wishi-Washi really doesn't need this sort of present from his friends.
  • Piglet wrote: »
    I think you might be missing part of the point, LC.

    Apparently to appease the "blackmailer", Wragg gave them phone numbers of several of his colleagues - surely that must be some sort of security breach?

    No, I get that bit, and it's a fairly normal security problem. People doing things they want kept private, and then being blackmailed over them is a story as old as the hills, and a standard tool in espionage.

    Mr. Wragg is "out" as a gay man - there is no secret about him being gay. But I imagine he, like most other people, didn't relish the idea of his intimate pictures gracing the pages of a tabloid with the sort of "kiss-and-tell" story that has been standard tabloid fodder for decades. Mr. Wragg, like everyone else, should have a reasonable expectation of privacy in his intimate life. It's nobody's business how he likes to have sex.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Spike wrote: »

    They haven't a clue. Academic high fliers, privileged backgrounds, rolled natural 20s down the line,
    Piglet wrote: »
    I think you might be missing part of the point, LC.

    Apparently to appease the "blackmailer", Wragg gave them phone numbers of several of his colleagues - surely that must be some sort of security breach?

    Anyway, someone who doesn't have the wit to not send intimate pictures of himself to a total stranger presumably also doesn't have the brains to be an MP.

    [tangent]
    Am I alone in finding the expression "keep the whip" wryly amusing in situations like this? :naughty:
    [/tangent]

    I always find the obvious BDSM connotations amusing, without wishing to kink shame anyone.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Mr. Wragg is "out" as a gay man - there is no secret about him being gay. But I imagine he, like most other people, didn't relish the idea of his intimate pictures gracing the pages of a tabloid with the sort of "kiss-and-tell" story that has been standard tabloid fodder for decades. Mr. Wragg, like everyone else, should have a reasonable expectation of privacy in his intimate life. It's nobody's business how he likes to have sex.
    Though, pics in the tabloids isn't going to be the problem (not even the sleeziest tabloid will actually publish them even if they get them, certainly not without obscuring them a lot), and it's not a "kiss and tell" since it seems all that's happened is a few pictures have been sent to someone (there wasn't a date or any sort of extended communication - if there was then it would make the work of the police much easier). But, those pictures appearing in the email inboxes of family and friends, and getting shared around the dark web where they might be used for purposes I'd prefer not to think about is a possibility. Probably the biggest threat the blackmailer had has now been removed, that he used a site known for arranging casual sex - I don't know if he's married or in some other committed relationship (it's none of my business) but if he is then it's going to cause problems there.
  • Well, whatever the outcome, poor Mr Wragg has been very silly indeed. Sending intimate pictures to an unknown party is pretty daft, but then everyone does foolish things from time to time.

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Well, whatever the outcome, poor Mr Wragg has been very silly indeed. Sending intimate pictures to an unknown party is pretty daft, but then everyone does foolish things from time to time.

    Giving out contact details of parliamentarians to someone he knew to be a malicious actor was a long, long way from being foolish.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Two more signs - if you needed any - that the Conservatives inhabit a different and very strange universe from the rest of us.

    First, a newspaper headline I saw in the supermarket this morning that described Wragg as a "Senior Conservative". Until he revealed himself today to be senior only among pratts, had any shipmate, or anyone else for that matter, ever heard of him?

    And now, second - alas I can't provide a link - an article by Katy Balls in the i today saying that Priti Patel is emerging as the 'secret' Tory leadership frontrunner, and including - wait for it - a photo of her with the show-stopping caption, "Priti Patel is seen as a candidate not tainted by the Tory party's psychodramas. "

  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Well, whatever the outcome, poor Mr Wragg has been very silly indeed. Sending intimate pictures to an unknown party is pretty daft, but then everyone does foolish things from time to time.


    He was a dick with his dick. T'appens.

    But sending contact details was inexcusable imo. I'm surprised the Tories are making light of it.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2024
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Well, whatever the outcome, poor Mr Wragg has been very silly indeed. Sending intimate pictures to an unknown party is pretty daft, but then everyone does foolish things from time to time.

    Giving out contact details of parliamentarians to someone he knew to be a malicious actor was a long, long way from being foolish.

    Yes, indeed - I suspect that by that stage he'd lost the plot entirely.

    (Quite why I seem to be acting as Devil's Advocate for the prat, I know not...)
    Boogie wrote: »
    Well, whatever the outcome, poor Mr Wragg has been very silly indeed. Sending intimate pictures to an unknown party is pretty daft, but then everyone does foolish things from time to time.

    He was a dick with his dick. T'appens.

    But sending contact details was inexcusable imo. I'm surprised the Tories are making light of it.

    I expect the tories are anxious to avoid yet another byelection, especially as a General Election can't be far off...but one does wonder just who else is involved...

  • KarlLB wrote: »

    They haven't a clue. Academic high fliers, privileged backgrounds, rolled natural 20s down the line,

    At the risk of elitist snobbery, in general, they are not academic high fliers. I'm not really eithee but I have more degrees than the Prime Minister and the Chancellor put together.

    What they are is the beneficiaries of very expensive schools which makes entry to an elite university much easier. I don't think either of them is stupid but they benefited from HUGE advantages. The effect of which is to exaggerate their talent and abilities relative to equally able people without that advantage. Both have degrees. Only one has a post graduate qualification.

    My point is this - and I make it because it emphasises your point - they are not as able or clever as they think they are. They are not special.

    As a wise man once said, a rich man is just a poor man with more money.

    It is important to consider what the life chances / life trajectory would have been for say Alexander Johson with his behaviours were he not born into money.

    Academic middling fliers with a big headstart... and this is their major blindspot.

    AFZ
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    "Priti Patel is seen as a candidate not tainted by the Tory party's psychodramas. "
    Not tainted by the current raft of psychodramas, which is possibly good enough for anyone who thinks a week is a long time in politics and what happened three months ago has been forgotten.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Why couldn't he have waited till after the general election. Nobody will be interested in his private life then
  • Telford wrote: »
    Why couldn't he have waited till after the general election. Nobody will be interested in his private life then

    You think Mr Wragg should have waited to be blackmailed until the election was over? Generally speaking, victims don't control when they get blackmailed.

    Or are you just thinking that he ought to be celibate in the year running up to an election, because there might be a blackmailer out there?
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Why couldn't he have waited till after the general election. Nobody will be interested in his private life then

    You think Mr Wragg should have waited to be blackmailed until the election was over? Generally speaking, victims don't control when they get blackmailed.

    Or are you just thinking that he ought to be celibate in the year running up to an election, because there might be a blackmailer out there?

    Not at all. I think that an ex MP would not be worth blackmailing
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    He was certainly unwise to do what he did in the first place. But giving names is bad. He should lose the whip. It might not be worth it however, the May elections are going to be important.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    He was certainly unwise to do what he did in the first place. But giving names is bad. He should lose the whip. It might not be worth it however, the May elections are going to be important.

    Yes. It is said that Wishi-Washi is waiting to see how the May elections turn out before announcing the General Election, not that the polls give him any hope of anything other than disaster.

    (I was a bit surprised to receive a polling card the other day, given that our local elections were held last year, but of course it's for the election of the Police and Crime Commissioner for the county. Apparently, the tories are afraid of a wipe-out here, too).
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Falling victim to a blackmailer is a misfortune. But I think helping the blackmailer to try to trap other people, especially when those other people have power and influence of their own, is crossing a line.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Falling victim to a blackmailer is a misfortune. But I think helping the blackmailer to try to trap other people, especially when those other people have power and influence of their own, is crossing a line.

    So it is, but I did wonder if perhaps Wragg simply panicked, and lost the plot...he has a history of mental health issues, I gather.

    The line was crossed, though.
  • Garvan Walshe goes off-piste with some revelations that are - probably - quite tame by today's standards (ten or so years later):

    https://twitter.com/garvanwalshe/status/1777327712413073675
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2024
    It is reported today that William Wragg has resigned the tory whip, and will henceforth sit as an independent MP.

    I suppose it's possible for there to be a byelection in his constituency prior to the General Election, but perhaps it's unlikely. Would it be more honourable, so to speak, for him to resign as an MP, anyway?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/09/william-wragg-resigns-tory-whip-after-divulging-mps-phone-numbers
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    At this moment it would seem sensible just to stay put a few more months until the general election. If he does resign as an MP (which is an interesting process because an MP can't actually "resign", they need to apply for an appointment to a crown position that disqualifies them from being an MP ... oh what a wonderful system we have) then the government can choose to not hold a by-election within the usual 3 month period given the immanent general election.
  • Yes, he would have to apply for the stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds, or perhaps to become Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead.

    As you say, probably best to stay put until the General Election, but his political career is over, anyway. Trust betrayed cannot easily be regained.
  • JonahManJonahMan Shipmate
    Agiven the immanent general election.

    It certainly seems pervasive, and I hope is also coming soon.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 2024
    JonahMan wrote: »
    Agiven the immanent general election.

    It certainly seems pervasive, and I hope is also coming soon.

    A serendipitous typo on Alan's part?
    :lol:

    Latest news is that, following Wishi-Washi's tea party with Kuddly Paul Kagame, he (Wishi-Washi) is confident that the tories' inhumane Rwanda scheme will soon be up and running, despite the lack of an airline to carry those transported, and the lack of housing for them in Kigali (apparently the canny Rwandans have sold off some of the accommodation...)

    More proof, if it were needed, that he lives in a parallel universe (at least, in his head).
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    They have sold some of the accommodation and are saying that the people flown over would be mixed in with the local population and it has been thus from the start. What have we paid for? Houses for Rwandans? They need the housing OK and if that had been said from the start then it would at least have been open and honest. Helping out another country is great. Where has all our tax money gone? There is a need for housing in this country. They promised to build a lot more homes here. Once this gets out to the general public I am expecting pitchforks and torches. But we will probably just grumble and tut.
  • Yes, and, like the turkeys, vote for Christmas,
    :disappointed:

    Meanwhile, Kagame carries on laughing as he goes to the bank with our £££...
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Remind me again which of the colonial powers looted Rwanda in the nineteenth and early twentieth century?
  • Hmm. I expect it was the Labour party, or that's what the tories might suggest...

    (IRONY)
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Jane R wrote: »
    Remind me again which of the colonial powers looted Rwanda in the nineteenth and early twentieth century?
    I have checked on the interweb. I assume you are on about Germany and Belgium

  • Telford wrote: »
    Jane R wrote: »
    Remind me again which of the colonial powers looted Rwanda in the nineteenth and early twentieth century?
    I have checked on the interweb. I assume you are on about Germany and Belgium

    Yes - Germany at the end of the 19thC, and Belgium from 1916:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwanda

    British interests presumably were elsewhere at the time.
  • ETA:

    I wonder if our non-involvement in the colonialisation of Rwanda is anything to do with Kuddly Paul's apparent friendliness?

    Either way, the country seems an unlikely bedfellow. He who lieth down with Dogs will arise with Fleas, and all that.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    ETA:

    I wonder if our non-involvement in the colonialisation of Rwanda is anything to do with Kuddly Paul's apparent friendliness?

    Either way, the country seems an unlikely bedfellow. He who lieth down with Dogs will arise with Fleas, and all that.
    My feelings about the country of which I'm an ashamed national makes me want to pose the question which is the one that is lying down with dogs here?

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