Not a good time for the Conservative government in the UK

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  • Yes, ministers who are abroad are called back, leave for civil servants cancelled, etc., so everybody and their dog has got their panties up the flagpole. Let's hope so, time to get this shower out.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    Those aren't panties ! Those are Union Flags, which all True-Blue Englishmen™ should hold sacred!

    As to the General Election, Wishi-Washi may well be waiting for the first convict plane to be flown to the penal settlement in Africa, at which point he can say that he has *delivered* what The Will Of The People™ has required him to do...
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Signs Westminster only thinks about England: Scottish schools will already have broken up and many people will have holidays booked.
  • Signs Westminster only thinks about England: Scottish schools will already have broken up and many people will have holidays booked.

    would be a bit of a scramble but there is time to sort a postal vote (I think) - I appreciate that's not really good enough, and neither am I remotely defending any such decision - but it's not actually disenfranchisement I suppose. Neither does that address people who might want to campaign rather than just vote.

    However, given the current state of public opinion, I think most people will probably be fairly happy to Get It Over With whether they've got a holiday booked or not.
  • The RogueThe Rogue Shipmate
    With our children having left English schooling we will be on holiday. I'll look into a postal vote so that I can bang my nail into the coffin.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Signs Westminster only thinks about England: Scottish schools will already have broken up and many people will have holidays booked.

    Or they know that perfectly well and also know that most Scots have more sense than vote Tory.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    And it is confirmed. 4th July it is.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited May 2024
    Announced by Wishi - literally getting washed away in front of the door of Downing Street.

    Excellent hair spray. I was hoping for his hair to flop all over his face. Sadly no.
  • Surprised he's gone so early, presumably he thinks the economy is improving. Some journos think he's thrown in the towel Dunno.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    O thank Cthulhu - at last! Time to put the country out of its misery...
    🐙

    I guess we may end up with another shower in power, but at least it'll be a less repulsive shower...

    Now for six weeks of unbroken misery, as the tories make a last-ditch stand, trying to persuade us that only They can deliver the Unicorns, Sunlit Uplands, Bulgar Wheat, Venezuelan Beaver Cheese, and so on - all those good things the Hard-Working British Family™ deserves.

    Getting a convict plane to Rwanda before the Election is unlikely, I think (and hope), given the many legal challenges that will arise. Unless, that is, the evil tories have already sent one, without anybody noticing.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    O thank Cthulhu - at last! Time to put the country out of its misery...
    🐙

    I guess we may end up with another shower in power, but at least it'll be a less repulsive shower...

    Now for six weeks of unbroken misery, as the tories make a last-ditch stand, trying to persuade us that only They can deliver the Unicorns, Sunlit Uplands, Bulgar Wheat, Venezuelan Beaver Cheese, and so on - all those good things the Hard-Working British Family™ deserves.

    Getting a convict plane to Rwanda before the Election is unlikely, I think (and hope), given the many legal challenges that will arise. Unless, that is, the evil tories have already sent one, without anybody noticing.

    Rishi already started doing that
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    Surprised he's gone so early, presumably he thinks the economy is improving. Some journos think he's thrown in the towel Dunno.

    I think what might have happened is that they put a few feelers out after the inflation figures were announced. Then when he refused to rule it out that started a stampede of letters, at which point the choice was to call the election or face a leadership contest.
  • Yes, forgot that.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    Yes, forgot that.

    So did I. There are reports of *No Confidence* letters already, though quite what the authors of those letters think they might achieve is open to question. Wishi-Washi may well have been caught between a rock and a hard place.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I may be misremembering (in my own case it was over 40 years ago, and when I was issuing them at the University of Ulster, over 20), but don't student ID cards have your date of birth so that you can use them to get served in pubs?

    I do think it's very cynical of the Govt to permit senior bus-passes (mine has only photo and name - no DOB) but not young people's ones - pure gerrymandering.

  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Signs Westminster only thinks about England: Scottish schools will already have broken up and many people will have holidays booked.

    would be a bit of a scramble but there is time to sort a postal vote (I think)
    Yes, in theory there's time to organise a postal vote, the cut off for registering for a postal ballot will be during the short campaign (from memory, about 2 weeks before the polling day). Remember you need to register for a postal ballot early enough for it to get to you before you leave for holiday, and probably a very good idea to post it before you leave (especially if going abroad).
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Surprised he's gone so early, presumably he thinks the economy is improving. Some journos think he's thrown in the towel Dunno.
    Presumably he held onto the towel, he'd have needed it to dry off after forgetting his umbrella when he walked out of No 10.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Picking up the id issue, despite the government voter suppression we've no real choice but to have id. If you know anyone without id, make sure they visit https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-voter-authority-certificate asap so they can vote.
  • If for the sake of argument we assume that there is impersonation fraud at polling stations, then the question is "what level of id is required to prevent this?" Does it just need a name and photo? Or, does it also need the address of the voter to stop someone of the same name impersonating the voter?

    If (for the sake of the same argument) this were true, then you'd want the workers at the polling station to be able to identify or confirm the identity card as authentic. After all, anyone can print up a plastic badge with a photo, a name, and a bunch of random numbers.

    "Everybody" is familiar with the look and feel of a UK passport and driving licence. What should a poll worker do if I present them with a photo of my grinning face on a plastic card bearing the name and logo of East Chelmsford University, asserting that I am one Alan B'Stard, a student in their Department of Political Science?

    We agree that this is a silly argument about a non-problem, but if you accept the premise, then it's hard not to argue that the set of acceptable forms of id should be short and robust.



  • Signs Westminster only thinks about England: Scottish schools will already have broken up and many people will have holidays booked.

    Many English public schools will also have broken up, and those form the natural territory of the Tory party. English state schools will still be open, but the public schools generally run shorter terms.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Piglet wrote: »
    I may be misremembering (in my own case it was over 40 years ago, and when I was issuing them at the University of Ulster, over 20), but don't student ID cards have your date of birth so that you can use them to get served in pubs?

    I do think it's very cynical of the Govt to permit senior bus-passes (mine has only photo and name - no DOB) but not young people's ones - pure gerrymandering.
    But they will be permitted regardless as to how the holder votes.

  • Telford wrote: »
    But they will be permitted regardless as to how the holder votes.

    If the government believes that a majority of older people will vote for it, but a majority of younger people will not vote for it, then any measure that makes it easy for old people to vote and hard for young people to vote will benefit the government.

  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    But they will be permitted regardless as to how the holder votes.

    If the government believes that a majority of older people will vote for it, but a majority of younger people will not vote for it, then any measure that makes it easy for old people to vote and hard for young people to vote will benefit the government.

    Why are older people more likely to vote Conservative ?
  • CameronCameron Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    But they will be permitted regardless as to how the holder votes.

    If the government believes that a majority of older people will vote for it, but a majority of younger people will not vote for it, then any measure that makes it easy for old people to vote and hard for young people to vote will benefit the government.

    Why are older people more likely to vote Conservative ?

    Do we need to know why, when it is a statistical fact?

    The point is that a pensioner’s bus pass is no more secure than a student ID card, yet magically acceptable as ID; whereas the form of ID for young voters that statistically vote Labour is somehow unacceptable.

    One could add that the serving military staff, ceteris paribus, also fall into the age groups statistically more likely to vote Labour - and so it is no surprise that their military ID was also excluded at the local elections. I would not be surprised if that’s not sorted in time for the general election either…
  • TwangistTwangist Shipmate
    Poorer people are less likely to have passports or a driving licence
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Twangist wrote: »
    Poorer people are less likely to have passports or a driving licence

    For many years in my early adulthood I had neither and I wasn't particularly poor.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    But you may have been atypical. My amiable spouse acquired his first passport at 37 and at nearly 72 has never had a driver’s license; atypical for his background & profession.
  • TwangistTwangist Shipmate
    Plenty of folk can be easily disenfranchised by the photo id requirements
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    edited May 2024
    "Everybody" is familiar with the look and feel of a UK passport and driving licence. What should a poll worker do if I present them with a photo of my grinning face on a plastic card bearing the name and logo of East Chelmsford University, asserting that I am one Alan B'Stard, a student in their Department of Political Science?

    We agree that this is a silly argument about a non-problem, but if you accept the premise, then it's hard not to argue that the set of acceptable forms of id should be short and robust.

    If you want to argue that it has to be short to be robust, then by that standard the present system isn't robust. Do you know what a Northern Irish Electoral ID Card looks like? How about a Maltese National ID Card? What about a biometric residence permit? War Disablement Pass (issued in Northern Ireland) ? Anonymous Elector's Document? Defence ID Card? National Entitlement Card?

    Here's the full list:

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/running-electoral-registration-wales/voter-authority-certificates-and-anonymous-electors-documents

    There's no reason why an NUS Card (as opposed to the access card issued by individual universities and colleges to get into their buildings) couldn't be added to that list.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Many ID cards not on the list would be acceptable as proof of age. The solution would be to hire some hospitality staff for the day to check ID, they'd be familiar with all those forms of ID. As hospitality staff are generally underpaid, a few hours extra work would be welcome (though, they'll probably object to the full 15h+ shift the election staff have to manage).
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    Cameron wrote: »
    One could add that the serving military staff, ceteris paribus, also fall into the age groups statistically more likely to vote Labour - and so it is no surprise that their military ID was also excluded at the local elections. I would not be surprised if that’s not sorted in time for the general election either…

    which is barking mad given that your MOD90 (military ID card) is what gets you in and out of razor wire fences guarded by people with assault rifles at UK bases all over the world. So accessing a village hall to be allowed to put a X on a bit of paper is clearly a whole other level of clearance...

    OTOH, I wouldn't like to speculate how the armed forces (en bloc) vote. 20 years ago the officer corps was always a bit more Labour than I would have expected, the other ranks a fair spread, but probably slightly tending right. You'd also get communists, fascists and every other point on the compass in there though as you would anywhere.

    I'd have been confident that a Tory government actively seeking to gerrymander might have expected to pick up more votes than they lost by putting the armed forces inside the tent though, which makes me think the whole thing, once again, is more in the realms of cock-up/incompetence rather than conspiracy.

    ETA - though I note from the list that a MOD90 was indeed on it - so not sure why it's being suggested that they weren't....?

  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    But they will be permitted regardless as to how the holder votes.

    If the government believes that a majority of older people will vote for it, but a majority of younger people will not vote for it, then any measure that makes it easy for old people to vote and hard for young people to vote will benefit the government.

    Why are older people more likely to vote Conservative ?

    The theory is that they are likely to own their own home with no mortgage. They are settled and don’t want things to change much. They may have a pension linked to the stock market. The Cons have been seen as the party of business.
    Things are changing though and people of my generation (Gen X) are not automatically doing this. Certainly those younger than me are not happy with the Cons
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    edited May 2024
    ETA - though I note from the list that a MOD90 was indeed on it - so not sure why it's being suggested that they weren't....?

    I think there's some confusion between the MOD90 (which is on the list) and the newly introduced (ish) Veterans ID card (which isn't).
  • ETA - though I note from the list that a MOD90 was indeed on it - so not sure why it's being suggested that they weren't....?

    I think there's some confusion between the MOD90 (which is on the list) and the newly introduced (ish) Veterans ID card (which isn't).

    yes, the Veterans Card has some useful discounts*, but it's proof of entitlement I suppose, rather than proof of ID

    *I'm currently navigating the kafkaesque bureaucracy of trying to get one. The big stumbling block is where it asks for your discharge certificate - which officers, certainly in my era, were not issued.

    The seem to have no problem agreeing that I served, but I can't prove to their satisfaction that I left...
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    yes, the Veterans Card has some useful discounts*, but it's proof of entitlement I suppose, rather than proof of ID

    Well, you'd have to prove your ID to get one - which also the argument used to accept the 'Oyster 60+' card, but not the normal Oyster Photo Card.
    The seem to have no problem agreeing that I served, but I can't prove to their satisfaction that I left...

    Presumably they aren't inclined to arrest you on the spot for being AWOL all these years?

  • Presumably they aren't inclined to arrest you on the spot for being AWOL all these years?

    that happens more often than you might think actually... it's a bit like being pulled over for speeding, when it's purely an admin error* how you present yourself and your attitude with the guardroom is the difference between being made a cup of tea, and spending 24 hours in the cells - which is embarrassing when you've got your wife and children outside with the car running...

    *almost always on the MOD's side
  • Maybe the Veterans ID card is conditional on having not been kicked out of the forces for misbehaviour, in which case they’d need to know not so much if you’ve left but the manner in which you did so?

    Pure speculation on my part.
  • The RogueThe Rogue Shipmate

    The seem to have no problem agreeing that I served, but I can't prove to their satisfaction that I left...

    Presumably they aren't inclined to arrest you on the spot for being AWOL all these years?

    More to the point, what about backpay?
  • Maybe the Veterans ID card is conditional on having not been kicked out of the forces for misbehaviour, in which case they’d need to know not so much if you’ve left but the manner in which you did so?

    Pure speculation on my part.

    I think it's much more like the old joke about joint services things - 'Joint - spelled A.R.M.Y.' - the army is so much bigger than the other two that it dominates.

    So here I reckon they thought they'd got a system that worked because it worked for most people - ex army non-officers. It's only now that people are raising objections like 'I'm an ex-naval officer and we aren't/weren't issued discharge certificates, because that's not how the navy works/worked.'

    MOD: 'Oh. Didn't think of that. Oh. Er...'
  • CameronCameron Shipmate
    ETA - though I note from the list that a MOD90 was indeed on it - so not sure why it's being suggested that they weren't....?

    I think there's some confusion between the MOD90 (which is on the list) and the newly introduced (ish) Veterans ID card (which isn't).

    Yes, apologies - it is the veteran’s card that was the issue. So even more bonkers / cock-up territory for the Tories.
  • Bonkers and Cock-ups (Cocks-up?) are tory trademarks.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    But they will be permitted regardless as to how the holder votes.

    If the government believes that a majority of older people will vote for it, but a majority of younger people will not vote for it, then any measure that makes it easy for old people to vote and hard for young people to vote will benefit the government.

    Why are older people more likely to vote Conservative ?

    The theory is that they are likely to own their own home with no mortgage. They are settled and don’t want things to change much. They may have a pension linked to the stock market. The Cons have been seen as the party of business.
    Things are changing though and people of my generation (Gen X) are not automatically doing this. Certainly those younger than me are not happy with the Cons

    Thanks for that. Good answer. However I still want to know who is telling people how I voted.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Surprised he's gone so early, presumably he thinks the economy is improving. Some journos think he's thrown in the towel Dunno.
    Presumably he held onto the towel, he'd have needed it to dry off after forgetting his umbrella when he walked out of No 10.

    Did anyone else have 'Not enough sense to come in out of the rain' on their bingo card?
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Jane R wrote: »
    Surprised he's gone so early, presumably he thinks the economy is improving. Some journos think he's thrown in the towel Dunno.
    Presumably he held onto the towel, he'd have needed it to dry off after forgetting his umbrella when he walked out of No 10.

    Did anyone else have 'Not enough sense to come in out of the rain' on their bingo card?

    There is a press office in Number 10. It is traditional to announce an election outside, but still…
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Hugal wrote: »
    Jane R wrote: »
    Surprised he's gone so early, presumably he thinks the economy is improving. Some journos think he's thrown in the towel Dunno.
    Presumably he held onto the towel, he'd have needed it to dry off after forgetting his umbrella when he walked out of No 10.

    Did anyone else have 'Not enough sense to come in out of the rain' on their bingo card?

    There is a press office in Number 10. It is traditional to announce an election outside, but still…

    Nobody had an umbrella?
  • As someone has suggested, it wasn't rain - it was the Cabinet pissing out of the windows...
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    edited May 2024
    Gove giving up.

    The words "rat" and "sinking ship" spring to mind.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    Piglet wrote: »
    Gove giving up.

    The words "rat" and "sinking ship" spring to mind.

    O, so it's not all bad news, then...but yes, they know that the game is up.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Bloody Gove .... depriving us of another delicious Portillo moment.
  • Well, with any luck there'll be a few Portillo moments, anyway...
    :naughty:
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