Not a good time for the Conservative government in the UK

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  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Generally if one is identifying civil servants the shorthand would be "Whitehall" rather than "Westminster".
  • Quite a few journos making the amusing point that Sunak is attacking, not Labour, but the policies of his predecessors. I suppose he has to.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited October 2023
    Hugal wrote: »
    The tories' War Against The Motorist is becoming even more insane:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/sep/29/rishi-sunak-anti-car-policies-tories-20mph-speed-zones-ulez-keir-starmer-uk-politics-latest

    The increasingly unhinged Sushi Rinak sees 20mph speed limits as *against British values*...although he and his lapdogs don't seem able to produce a definitive list of those *values*.

    Bonkers - and yet he insists that he is delivering only good things to *hard-working British families*. What about all the families out of work, those in poverty, or the homeless, or the destitute, or those waiting never-to-be-had hospital appointments, or those without families...? What is he delivering them ?

    They are not working hard enough to get themselves out the misery someone else has caused them. If we help them they will not help themselves, to get out of the mire other people put them in.

    Exactly, the rich put them there and they only have themselves to blame, they need to pull their socks up, put their back into it, pull their finger out, sort themselves out.
  • Generally if one is identifying civil servants the shorthand would be "Whitehall" rather than "Westminster".

    Quite.
  • BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    Sorry to triple-post, but this item in today's Guardian caught my eye.

    Shameful, and the responsibility is Cruella's:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/01/home-office-centre-for-disabled-asylum-seekers-care-home

    When, O when, will this awful person GO...?
    :rage:
  • BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30

    You need to stop spouting lies. No prison ships are being used.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    You need to mind your manners - accusing me of lying is a personal attack, which I resent most strongly.

    The reference, in case you'd missed it, is to the Bibby Stockholm, which has been described as nothing more-nor-less than an updated version of the prison ships of the 18th and 19th centuries.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Telford wrote: »
    BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30

    You need to stop spouting lies. No prison ships are being used.

    If you confine people to a vessel floating in the water precisely how is that different from a floating prison? Is it that no-one on board has been convicted of a crime?
  • You need to mind your manners - accusing me of lying is a personal attack, which I resent most strongly.

    The reference, in case you'd missed it, is to the Bibby Stockholm, which has been described as nothing more-nor-less than an updated version of the prison ships of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    It is not a prison ship.
    Telford wrote: »
    BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30

    You need to stop spouting lies. No prison ships are being used.

    If you confine people to a vessel floating in the water precisely how is that different from a floating prison? Is it that no-one on board has been convicted of a crime?

    It is not intended to confine anyone on these vessels. They are merely a floating hotel.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    Those on board have been convicted of a crime - that of being a human being from a horrid foreign place, in need of compassion and help. The fascists and the gammon, however, see them as less than human, as illegal people...

    Merely a floating hotel, indeed.
    :rage:
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    You need to mind your manners - accusing me of lying is a personal attack, which I resent most strongly.

    The reference, in case you'd missed it, is to the Bibby Stockholm, which has been described as nothing more-nor-less than an updated version of the prison ships of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    It is not a prison ship.
    Telford wrote: »
    BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30

    You need to stop spouting lies. No prison ships are being used.

    If you confine people to a vessel floating in the water precisely how is that different from a floating prison? Is it that no-one on board has been convicted of a crime?

    It is not intended to confine anyone on these vessels. They are merely a floating hotel.

    Are they at liberty to leave and live somewhere else?
  • Reports today that a human rights/refugee activist has been subjected to a Home Office raid:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/01/refugee-activists-house-in-home-office-raid-for-unknown-persons

    From that report:

    They left without finding anyone hiding in his home and gave him a Home Office form, seen by the Observer, stating they were searching for “unknown illegal persons”.

    My italics.

    So there we have it, in print - there are officially people who are somehow illegal. Quite what they're supposed to do about it, in order to become legal, is another matter.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    You need to mind your manners - accusing me of lying is a personal attack, which I resent most strongly.

    The reference, in case you'd missed it, is to the Bibby Stockholm, which has been described as nothing more-nor-less than an updated version of the prison ships of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    It is not a prison ship.
    Telford wrote: »
    BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30

    You need to stop spouting lies. No prison ships are being used.

    If you confine people to a vessel floating in the water precisely how is that different from a floating prison? Is it that no-one on board has been convicted of a crime?

    It is not intended to confine anyone on these vessels. They are merely a floating hotel.

    Are they at liberty to leave and live somewhere else?

    The government provides free accomodation for asylum seekers. If they chose to move out of the accomodation provided, they are cannot be prevented from doing so.


  • Telford wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    You need to mind your manners - accusing me of lying is a personal attack, which I resent most strongly.

    The reference, in case you'd missed it, is to the Bibby Stockholm, which has been described as nothing more-nor-less than an updated version of the prison ships of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    It is not a prison ship.
    Telford wrote: »
    BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30

    You need to stop spouting lies. No prison ships are being used.

    If you confine people to a vessel floating in the water precisely how is that different from a floating prison? Is it that no-one on board has been convicted of a crime?

    It is not intended to confine anyone on these vessels. They are merely a floating hotel.

    Are they at liberty to leave and live somewhere else?

    The government provides free accomodation for asylum seekers. If they chose to move out of the accomodation provided, they are not prevented from doing so.


    Please read the link I provided in my previous post, which will tell you just what some of this free accommodation amounts to.

    You will, if you read the link, note that this is how the government you seem so keen to support treats vulnerable disabled people. Something to be proud of? I think not, but YMMV.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    If anyone refuses to accept offered accommodation, or after accepting it moves out, then they're not entitled to live anywhere else. When the choice is between the streets and a floating or landbased hotel, former barracks or some private let at barest minimal standard then it's not a real choice.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    Yes.

    I provided a link earlier today reporting on the appalling conditions in a former care home, whose unfortunate residents really do not have any alternative, other than the streets, or death.

    Perhaps that's what the fascists and the gammon actually want? At least, the horrid illegal people could then be swept up, and buried out of the sight of True-Blue Englishmen™ in common graves filled with lime.

    There are videos on YouTube, dating from the 1940s, which show how it's done.
  • Yes.

    I provided a link earlier today reporting on the appalling conditions in a former care home, whose unfortunate residents really do not have any alternative, other than the streets, or death.

    Perhaps that's what the fascists and the gammon actually want? At least, the horrid illegal people could then be swept up, and buried out of the sight of True-Blue Englishmen™ in common graves filled with lime.

    There are videos on YouTube, dating from the 1940s, which show how it's done.

    I have read the report. There is a long queue to have asyslum applications investigated. These poor people should be at the front of the queue.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    How do you know they're not at the front of the queue?

    The point I'm making is that the conditions they are being kept in are shameful, and appalling, and that they have nowhere else to go, despite your naive belief that they're free to wander wherever they wish.
  • Where would you house them?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Where would you house them?

    The "where" in this case is less important than the "how". People were placed there because of impairments or support needs and then not provided with the care they needed. Now, part of this is simply the sharp end of the utter disaster that is the social care system (which only appears to keep going because relatives wear themselves to threads covering the gaps) but, given the needs of the residents/inmates, staffing it with security rather than carers is unconscionable.
  • I found a Guardian article in which the chief exec of the charity Care4Calais describes the Bibby Stockholm as a 'floating prison'. I think the intentional inverted commas mean that it (when/if it has people residing in it) can be considered to have an equivalent status to the migrants as if it were (in legal terms) really a prison. So trying to mediate between Telford and Bishops Finger.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Where would you house them?
    I'd start by processing applications at a reasonable pace, so that asylum seekers become refugees in a period of a few weeks. Then you only need to accommodate asylum seekers for a few weeks, which massively reduces the number of asylum seekers who need housing. It also reduces the mental impact on asylum seekers of being housed for months in what are effective prisons - small rooms, limited facilities within the hotel or camp, limited options for leaving. At that point, with only a few people to house for short periods the "where" becomes a lot less important for the majority - there would, of course, be extra considerations still needed for asylum seekers with additional needs, or those who for whatever reason have more complex claims that can't be handled in a week or two.

    My preference would be for accommodation that's self-catering (giving asylum seekers the activity of cooking, with funds available for them to visit local shops to buy ingredients), located within towns where there's already a community of refugees and other migrants from their home nation (ideally, home town/region) which gives an automatic support network along with legal support etc.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    You need to mind your manners - accusing me of lying is a personal attack, which I resent most strongly.

    The reference, in case you'd missed it, is to the Bibby Stockholm, which has been described as nothing more-nor-less than an updated version of the prison ships of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    It is not a prison ship.
    Telford wrote: »
    BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30

    You need to stop spouting lies. No prison ships are being used.

    If you confine people to a vessel floating in the water precisely how is that different from a floating prison? Is it that no-one on board has been convicted of a crime?

    It is not intended to confine anyone on these vessels. They are merely a floating hotel.

    Trying not to Junior Host but this is Hell. We can use such metaphors as prison ships. This government has a deserved reputation for housing people in awful conditions. That breaks human rights law. Their attitude seems to be slightly nicer than Nazis, and yes I stand by that statement. They are following that playbook. Create a group to be hated. To be less than human so they can effectively do what they like with them. If they were serious they would invest in the system so that these poor people can dealt with humanly. It starts this way, and grows worse. The Home Secretary in particular should be up before human rights courts. Her department has treated these people badly, in an inhuman manner.
    Rant over.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    You need to mind your manners - accusing me of lying is a personal attack, which I resent most strongly.

    The reference, in case you'd missed it, is to the Bibby Stockholm, which has been described as nothing more-nor-less than an updated version of the prison ships of the 18th and 19th centuries.

    It is not a prison ship.
    Telford wrote: »
    BTW, here's the Marsh Family's take on Cruella - her use of prison-ships clearly inspired the Family to adapt a couple of sea-shanties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmj0JFGqE30

    You need to stop spouting lies. No prison ships are being used.

    If you confine people to a vessel floating in the water precisely how is that different from a floating prison? Is it that no-one on board has been convicted of a crime?

    It is not intended to confine anyone on these vessels. They are merely a floating hotel.

    Trying not to Junior Host but this is Hell. We can use such metaphors as prison ships. This government has a deserved reputation for housing people in awful conditions. That breaks human rights law. Their attitude seems to be slightly nicer than Nazis, and yes I stand by that statement. They are following that playbook. Create a group to be hated. To be less than human so they can effectively do what they like with them. If they were serious they would invest in the system so that these poor people can dealt with humanly. It starts this way, and grows worse. The Home Secretary in particular should be up before human rights courts. Her department has treated these people badly, in an inhuman manner.
    Rant over.

    Well, I wouldn't disagree with what you say.

    However, there are people who say that the so-called *illegals* aren't effectively prisoners, and that they are free to go where they wish. Those who say this are no better than the egregious Cruella and her minions. It is they who spout lies, often garnered from such Oracles of Truth as right-wing *news* outlets.
  • Merry Vole wrote: »
    I found a Guardian article in which the chief exec of the charity Care4Calais describes the Bibby Stockholm as a 'floating prison'. I think the intentional inverted commas mean that it (when/if it has people residing in it) can be considered to have an equivalent status to the migrants as if it were (in legal terms) really a prison. So trying to mediate between Telford and Bishops Finger.

    That was more-or-less what I was getting at when I used the phrase - living where I do, prison ships are a matter of local history (and the bones of those who died aboard them are being released from their remote and unmarked graves by coastal erosion...).
  • Notice a convenient dog has eaten yet another ministers homework.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/02/sunak-fails-to-hand-whatsapp-messages-from-time-as-chancellor-to-covid-inquiry

    Sunak promised 'integrity and accountability at every level' when he was installed. How's that working out?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Now they’ve apparently noticed that WhatsApp messages aren’t archived, where’s the assurance that important government business is no longer going to be done on unrecorded unminuted systems ?
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The main rooms at the Con conference seem to be quite empty. The fringe groups such as as Liz Truss appear to be full
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    The main rooms at the Con conference seem to be quite empty. The fringe groups such as as Liz Truss appear to be full

    Disturbing isn't it?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Given that the tory faithful are the same swivel-eyed loons that chose Truss to be PM it is sadly unsurprising.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Given that the tory faithful are the same swivel-eyed loons that chose Truss to be PM it is sadly unsurprising.

    Quite. And Boris before her.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Given that the tory faithful are the same swivel-eyed loons that chose Truss to be PM it is sadly unsurprising.

    Quite. And Boris before her.

    Johnson, unlike Truss, also had overwhelming support among tory MPs.
  • Where would you house them?
    I'd start by processing applications at a reasonable pace, so that asylum seekers become refugees in a period of a few weeks. Then you only need to accommodate asylum seekers for a few weeks, which massively reduces the number of asylum seekers who need housing.

    Do refugees not need to be housed?
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Yes, but they have access to other funds - in particular they can work, and so earn the money to rent or buy their own home. They have much more freedom to move to find a home near, or with, family and friends already in the UK (which is one of the reasons why many choose the UK over other safe countries they could have fled to) with the support structures that includes.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    The main rooms at the Con conference seem to be quite empty. The fringe groups such as as Liz Truss appear to be full

    Disturbing isn't it?

    Some 60 MPs are said to have pledged their undying allegiance to The Lettuce, which is disturbing - but there's no guarantee that all of them will still be MPs after the next General Election...

    The conference as a whole does indeed appear to be poorly attended.
    Perhaps only the swivel-eyed loons have bothered to turn up?
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Conferences are big party fundraisers - tickets from those attending being part of that, along with all the sponsors and stalls. Low attendance would mean a reduced income this year, and possibly more significantly less interest from sponsors and stalls in future years ... this could be a significant hit to party finances. It would be a shame if the Conservatives no longer had the money to pay others to campaign, and had to start relying on members and volunteers to go out and talk to people to get votes.
  • I did read one report that said there were far fewer stalls, sponsors, businesses etc. at this year's conference, but that the Labour conference was well booked-up...
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Conferences are big party fundraisers - tickets from those attending being part of that, along with all the sponsors and stalls. Low attendance would mean a reduced income this year, and possibly more significantly less interest from sponsors and stalls in future years ... this could be a significant hit to party finances. It would be a shame if the Conservatives no longer had the money to pay others to campaign, and had to start relying on members and volunteers to go out and talk to people to get votes.

    Particularly as the gammons can't walk that far and the blue rinse brigade will wear out their zimmer frames if they try.
  • Now they’ve apparently noticed that WhatsApp messages aren’t archived, where’s the assurance that important government business is no longer going to be done on unrecorded unminuted systems ?

    In the days before social media such business would have been done via unrecorded unminuted face-to-face conversations. No doubt quite a lot of it still is. Do you consider that to be equally bad?
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Given that the tory faithful are the same swivel-eyed loons that chose Truss to be PM it is sadly unsurprising.

    Quite. And Boris before her.

    Johnson, unlike Truss, also had overwhelming support among tory MPs.

    But it is alwao worth remembering that Sunakstood against Truss and lost. So his support in Toryland is very dubious.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Now they’ve apparently noticed that WhatsApp messages aren’t archived, where’s the assurance that important government business is no longer going to be done on unrecorded unminuted systems ?

    In the days before social media such business would have been done via unrecorded unminuted face-to-face conversations. No doubt quite a lot of it still is. Do you consider that to be equally bad?

    Official government business is not meant to be, one of the reasons they are supposed to use official systems is so it can be archived for historical records - even if they institute a hundred year rule, you are supposed to be able to find out what actually happened eventually.

    Quite apart from party politics, it’s important for government to know what things tried in the past have succeeded and failed etc.
  • Conferences are big party fundraisers - tickets from those attending being part of that, along with all the sponsors and stalls. Low attendance would mean a reduced income this year, and possibly more significantly less interest from sponsors and stalls in future years ... this could be a significant hit to party finances. It would be a shame if the Conservatives no longer had the money to pay others to campaign, and had to start relying on members and volunteers to go out and talk to people to get votes.

    Particularly as the gammons can't walk that far and the blue rinse brigade will wear out their zimmer frames if they try.

    :naughty:

  • I did read one report that said there were far fewer stalls, sponsors, businesses etc. at this year's conference, but that the Labour conference was well booked-up...
    What was your source ?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    The Guardian.

    I think it was a passing comment in one of the many items dealing with the tory clusterfuck conference, but I regret that I cannot oblige you with a link right now. I'm really sorry about that, as I know how interested you are in getting the Facts.

    If you care to Google the Guardian's UK news pages, I expect you'll be able to find it.

  • To save you the trouble, here's a report from the Financial Times, which I hope you will accept as truthful:

    https://www.ft.com/content/5a2da013-2a2a-4ab8-b8d1-1ab2fdcc6297
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2023
    Oops - that article seems to be behind a paywall. However, if you Google Labour beats Tories in conference battle to lure business exhibitors you may be able to read it for free,

    Worth a try, if you think the FT is reliable, and not a spouter of lies.
  • The BBC has found Farage lurking at the conference. How come he/s there, and what is he up to, one wonders?
  • Oops - that article seems to be behind a paywall. However, if you Google Labour beats Tories in conference battle to lure business exhibitors you may be able to read it for free,

    Worth a try, if you think the FT is reliable, and not a spouter of lies.

    That's very helpful.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    The BBC has found Farage lurking at the conference. How come he/s there, and what is he up to, one wonders?

    I assume he's there speaking and attending fringe events, and presumably finding that many of the conference attendees are friendly to his points of view.
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