It is interesting to note that in some council elections the Tories appeared on the ballot as “Local Conservatives”. Other parties did not seem to distance themselves from their national organization on the ballot in this way (however individual campaigns might have been managed).
Even active Tories in the shires seem to want little to do with their national party now.
It is interesting to note that in some council elections the Tories appeared on the ballot as “Local Conservatives”. Other parties did not seem to distance themselves from their national organization on the ballot in this way (however individual campaigns might have been managed).
Even active Tories in the shires seem to want little to do with their national party now.
I noticed that, too. In addition, around here it was noticeable that whilst posters etc for candidates from other parties clearly announced the name of the party, all Tory posters simply gave the name of the candidate with the word 'conservative' nowhere to be seen.
It may not only be Labour that lost votes over Gaza. There may have been Conservative voters who whiched on the issue (which, incidentally, relates to national rather than local politics).
I find it interesting that in Greater Manchester the newspaper online comments, and often social media, absolutely slag off Burnham, and yet in votes he won by a huge majority. (A majority far, far greater than for Brexit or the present government.)
This has reminded me that many loud-mouthed whingers on the internet are in no way representative of the Great British public. Moreover, I find it hard to believe that people so motivated to whinge did not vote.
I do find the turnout disappointing. About 29% in my ward. But those who do not vote effectively give their proxy to those who do, whether they realise it or not.
It may not only be Labour that lost votes over Gaza. There may have been Conservative voters who whiched on the issue (which, incidentally, relates to national rather than local politics).
Possible, but Labour had more Muslim voters (and more non-Muslim voters with a conscience) to lose than anyone else. If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your choice.
I was out canvassing during this campaign. Oddly, Gaza didn’t get mentioned at all on the doorstep despite being an area with quite a high Muslim population and quite a significant number of Muslim Labour councillors
I was out canvassing in an area which is mainly White British, though with significant south Asian (mainly Indian). I probably spoke to 200 people. 3 of them mentioned Gaza- one Pakistani, one Black British, one White British.
It may not only be Labour that lost votes over Gaza. There may have been Conservative voters who whiched on the issue (which, incidentally, relates to national rather than local politics).
Possible, but Labour had more Muslim voters (and more non-Muslim voters with a conscience) to lose than anyone else. If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your choice.
Does this apply to all those who vote Conservative? Are these peope, redeemed if they change their vote?
It may not only be Labour that lost votes over Gaza. There may have been Conservative voters who whiched on the issue (which, incidentally, relates to national rather than local politics).
Possible, but Labour had more Muslim voters (and more non-Muslim voters with a conscience) to lose than anyone else. If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your choice.
Does this apply to all those who vote Conservative? Are these peope, redeemed if they change their vote?
I'm talking about voters expectations and acceptance of the behaviour of their representatives. If you infer that such an acceptance has a moral character of its own that's up to you.
It may not only be Labour that lost votes over Gaza. There may have been Conservative voters who whiched on the issue (which, incidentally, relates to national rather than local politics).
Possible, but Labour had more Muslim voters (and more non-Muslim voters with a conscience) to lose than anyone else. If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your / choice.
Does this apply to all those who vote Conservative? Are these peope, redeemed if they change their vote?
I'm talking about voters expectations and acceptance of the behaviour of their representatives. If you infer that such an acceptance has a moral character of its own that's up to you.
You said..."If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your choice."
The 'Local Conservatives' thing happened at our local elections last year. It's been going on a while.
I can't verify this, but I have heard that it's never been a completely Conservative thing. Apparently, Labour candidates have done the same in some places in the past, but I can't cite chapter and verse.
There's quite a churn and turnover in Conservative councillors and activists. Many become independent and that for a range of reasons, good, bad and indifferent. Some of them do so because they get fed up of being whipped into line over every single issue.
When a Conservative Councillor tried to convince me they didn't have a whip, I replied, 'No? You're right. You don't have a whip. You've got a dirty great big cat o'nine tails behind your back ...'
I have my differences with Labour, some of which I've aired on these boards, but what I've never seen Labour do locally is tell outright porkies in their election leaflets.
The Conservatives, however, make bare-faced and outrageous claims about things they know darn well they aren't in a position to deliver. I've seen Conservative leaflets which promise to deliver things that local councils don't even have a remit or the authority to do. When you tackle them about that on the doors they feign ignorance or dismiss it. The fact is, it's not ignorance but a deliberate ploy. They cynically take advantage of most voters' lack of awareness of how local government works.
To be fair, I've known them come down hard on some of their own members who've made personal attacks on other candidates in their literature. But I've seen Conservative candidates make outrageously inflated claims during campaigns only to do absolutely nothing once they are elected, hardly attending meetings and making no attempt to repay the public's trust.
I'm not one of those who goes round accusing anyone who votes Conservative or who stands as a Tory candidate of being beyond redemption but they aren't called 'the nasty party' for nothing.
I know a woman from a very working class background who, to everyone's surprise, became a Conservative councillor down in the West Midlands some years back. I won't name the town but it's not a million miles from Telford's neck of the woods.
She was a conscientious and hard-working councillor. One evening she turned up at her local party branch meeting to hear her colleagues taking the piss out of people with disabilities, anyone who was on benefits or who was 'different' or disadvantaged in any way.
Her husband has a disability.
She sat there fuming until, unable to take it any longer, she got up and walked out. As soon as she got home she resigned from the Party and has never voted Conservative since.
Sometimes it requires a Damascus Road experience.
I have a lot of respect for individual Conservative councillors but I could never vote Tory, even if they were the only candidate on the ballot paper.
Ok, that's an entirely emotional and visceral thing and back in the day several of my family members were archetypal working class Tories. They thought I was a Communist ... 😉
I've never voted Conservative and whilst I didn't agree with their position, it's one I respected.
But I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for the current Conservative government. They deserve their impending collapse.
What worries me is that even more toxic groups like Reform will be the beneficiaries.
It may not only be Labour that lost votes over Gaza. There may have been Conservative voters who whiched on the issue (which, incidentally, relates to national rather than local politics).
Possible, but Labour had more Muslim voters (and more non-Muslim voters with a conscience) to lose than anyone else. If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your / choice.
Does this apply to all those who vote Conservative? Are these peope, redeemed if they change their vote?
I'm talking about voters expectations and acceptance of the behaviour of their representatives. If you infer that such an acceptance has a moral character of its own that's up to you.
You said..."If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your choice."
You were clearly refering to the voters
I accept thay there is some ambiguity there, my apologies. I was trying to say that if you vote tory then you have already priced in that the people you're electing will display to some degree a callous disregard for human life, and hence a demonstration of that is less likely to put you off voting for them than it would a party ostensibly committed to human rights. Is that clearer?
I get that but whatever views non-Conservative supporters might have about the Tories I'm not convinced that your average Tory voter or occasional floating Tory voter would consider a callous disregard for human life as part of the package.
'Mwa ha ha ha ha, I'm going to vote Conservative because they eat babies for breakfast ...'
Yes, Conservative policies have very deleterious effects but outside of the swivel-eyed extreme right of the Tory party, most are generally decent folk whose ideology just happens to differ from yours.
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
It doesn't let their followers off the hook either.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
No, but there is often a heavy subtext of 'those people have had it too easy and need to be put in their place'.
Also policies have the effect they have in reality, not in the minds of supporters. I don't care what's in the mind of supporters on that level: they must be held accountable for the actual effects of the actual policies they are actually supporting.
I get that but whatever views non-Conservative supporters might have about the Tories I'm not convinced that your average Tory voter or occasional floating Tory voter would consider a callous disregard for human life as part of the package.
'Mwa ha ha ha ha, I'm going to vote Conservative because they eat babies for breakfast ...'
Yes, Conservative policies have very deleterious effects but outside of the swivel-eyed extreme right of the Tory party, most are generally decent folk whose ideology just happens to differ from yours.
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
I'm more thinking that they're practised in ignoring the harm done by tory policies, and a little light endorsement of genocide isn't going to breach that practised ignorance.
I don’t think your average Con voter is really aware of the situation. Just like your average voter overall. Unless you are politically minded you will vote for who you think suits you. Probably along the lines you voted previously. There are always governments like this one who are so bad many people notice. So change happens but usually not the case.
I don’t think your average Con voter is really aware of the situation.
Maybe they should exercise their personal responsibility and do some finding out?
Unfortunately, the same could be said for the vast majority of voters, whatever candidate they put their mark next to. Many voters are tribal, they'll vote as they always have and as their social circles would normally vote, without once looking at a manifesto or thinking about policies. That's as true of factory workers voting Labour as it is of members of the local golf club voting Tory.
I get that but whatever views non-Conservative supporters might have about the Tories I'm not convinced that your average Tory voter or occasional floating Tory voter would consider a callous disregard for human life as part of the package.
'Mwa ha ha ha ha, I'm going to vote Conservative because they eat babies for breakfast ...'
Yes, Conservative policies have very deleterious effects but outside of the swivel-eyed extreme right of the Tory party, most are generally decent folk whose ideology just happens to differ from yours.
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
I'm more thinking that they're practised in ignoring the harm done by tory policies, and a little light endorsement of genocide isn't going to breach that practised ignorance.
I don’t think your average Con voter is really aware of the situation.
Maybe they should exercise their personal responsibility and do some finding out?
Unfortunately, the same could be said for the vast majority of voters, whatever candidate they put their mark next to. Many voters are tribal, they'll vote as they always have and as their social circles would normally vote, without once looking at a manifesto or thinking about policies. That's as true of factory workers voting Labour as it is of members of the local golf club voting Tory.
This, too, alas! Would that it were otherwise, but we are where we are, as the annoying saying has it...
I get that but whatever views non-Conservative supporters might have about the Tories I'm not convinced that your average Tory voter or occasional floating Tory voter would consider a callous disregard for human life as part of the package.
'Mwa ha ha ha ha, I'm going to vote Conservative because they eat babies for breakfast ...'
Yes, Conservative policies have very deleterious effects but outside of the swivel-eyed extreme right of the Tory party, most are generally decent folk whose ideology just happens to differ from yours.
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
I'm more thinking that they're practised in ignoring the harm done by tory policies, and a little light endorsement of genocide isn't going to breach that practised ignorance.
I don’t think your average Con voter is really aware of the situation.
Maybe they should exercise their personal responsibility and do some finding out?
Unfortunately, the same could be said for the vast majority of voters, whatever candidate they put their mark next to. Many voters are tribal, they'll vote as they always have and as their social circles would normally vote, without once looking at a manifesto or thinking about policies. That's as true of factory workers voting Labour as it is of members of the local golf club voting Tory.
This, too, alas! Would that it were otherwise, but we are where we are, as the annoying saying has it...
I get that but whatever views non-Conservative supporters might have about the Tories I'm not convinced that your average Tory voter or occasional floating Tory voter would consider a callous disregard for human life as part of the package.
'Mwa ha ha ha ha, I'm going to vote Conservative because they eat babies for breakfast ...'
Yes, Conservative policies have very deleterious effects but outside of the swivel-eyed extreme right of the Tory party, most are generally decent folk whose ideology just happens to differ from yours.
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
I'm more thinking that they're practised in ignoring the harm done by tory policies, and a little light endorsement of genocide isn't going to breach that practised ignorance.
I don’t think your average Con voter is really aware of the situation.
Maybe they should exercise their personal responsibility and do some finding out?
Unfortunately, the same could be said for the vast majority of voters, whatever candidate they put their mark next to. Many voters are tribal, they'll vote as they always have and as their social circles would normally vote, without once looking at a manifesto or thinking about policies. That's as true of factory workers voting Labour as it is of members of the local golf club voting Tory.
This, too, alas! Would that it were otherwise, but we are where we are, as the annoying saying has it...
I get that but whatever views non-Conservative supporters might have about the Tories I'm not convinced that your average Tory voter or occasional floating Tory voter would consider a callous disregard for human life as part of the package.
'Mwa ha ha ha ha, I'm going to vote Conservative because they eat babies for breakfast ...'
Yes, Conservative policies have very deleterious effects but outside of the swivel-eyed extreme right of the Tory party, most are generally decent folk whose ideology just happens to differ from yours.
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
I'm more thinking that they're practised in ignoring the harm done by tory policies, and a little light endorsement of genocide isn't going to breach that practised ignorance.
I don’t think your average Con voter is really aware of the situation.
Maybe they should exercise their personal responsibility and do some finding out?
Unfortunately, the same could be said for the vast majority of voters, whatever candidate they put their mark next to. Many voters are tribal, they'll vote as they always have and as their social circles would normally vote, without once looking at a manifesto or thinking about policies. That's as true of factory workers voting Labour as it is of members of the local golf club voting Tory.
This, too, alas! Would that it were otherwise, but we are where we are, as the annoying saying has it...
Well, given the latest concerns about China, I doubt if Labour would be so daft as to send our Aircraft Carrier(s) to wave the UK willy flag in that part of the world.
It may not only be Labour that lost votes over Gaza. There may have been Conservative voters who whiched on the issue (which, incidentally, relates to national rather than local politics).
Possible, but Labour had more Muslim voters (and more non-Muslim voters with a conscience) to lose than anyone else. If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your / choice.
Does this apply to all those who vote Conservative? Are these peope, redeemed if they change their vote?
I'm talking about voters expectations and acceptance of the behaviour of their representatives. If you infer that such an acceptance has a moral character of its own that's up to you.
You said..."If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your choice."
You were clearly refering to the voters
I accept thay there is some ambiguity there, my apologies. I was trying to say that if you vote tory then you have already priced in that the people you're electing will display to some degree a callous disregard for human life, and hence a demonstration of that is less likely to put you off voting for them than it would a party ostensibly committed to human rights. Is that clearer?
Appology accepted (but not sought for) It is clearer but I can say that I agree with you. Conservative voters are just ordinary people
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
It doesn't let their followers off the hook either.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
No, but there is often a heavy subtext of 'those people have had it too easy and need to be put in their place'.
That's part of it, particularly with older Conservatives, but it's an attitude that isn't confided to Tory voters by any means.
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
It doesn't let their followers off the hook either.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
No, but there is often a heavy subtext of 'those people have had it too easy and need to be put in their place'.
That's part of it, particularly with older Conservatives, but it's an attitude that isn't confided to Tory voters by any means.
For how much longer can this ridiculous zombie government stagger on?
I know it must have been difficult to resist, but did Labour really need to welcome *her* with open arms? She’s not Tory left or centrist, she’s much more Patel/Anderson wing IMO
For how much longer can this ridiculous zombie government stagger on?
I know it must have been difficult to resist, but did Labour really need to welcome *her* with open arms? She’s not Tory left or centrist, she’s much more Patel/Anderson wing IMO
That thought occurred to me, too, but I suspect she simply wants to carry on being an MP after the General Election (though there's no guarantee that Dover will re-elect her on the Labour ticket, of course).
For how much longer can this ridiculous zombie government stagger on?
I know it must have been difficult to resist, but did Labour really need to welcome *her* with open arms? She’s not Tory left or centrist, she’s much more Patel/Anderson wing IMO
That thought occurred to me, too, but I suspect she simply wants to carry on being an MP after the General Election (though there's no guarantee that Dover will re-elect her on the Labour ticket, of course).
Labour have selected practically all of their candidates for the coming general election, so there's no real option for a defecting MP to stand again anyway - welcoming a defector to swell the Labour ranks in the coming Parliament is one thing, booting out a candidate already selected so that defector can stand instead is something else that I doubt would go down well with the rank and file who'll be doing the campaign work.
Labour have selected practically all of their candidates for the coming general election, so there's no real option for a defecting MP to stand again anyway - welcoming a defector to swell the Labour ranks in the coming Parliament is one thing, booting out a candidate already selected so that defector can stand instead is something else that I doubt would go down well with the rank and file who'll be doing the campaign work.
OK - I see what you mean. What will Elphicke have to do to be able to work with Starmer in a Labour government, though?
Labour have selected practically all of their candidates for the coming general election, so there's no real option for a defecting MP to stand again anyway - welcoming a defector to swell the Labour ranks in the coming Parliament is one thing, booting out a candidate already selected so that defector can stand instead is something else that I doubt would go down well with the rank and file who'll be doing the campaign work.
When has Starmer given half a runny shit about what the party rank and file think?
Just to correct a typo - "swell the Labour ranks in the coming Parliament is one thing" should have been "swell the Labour ranks in the current Parliament is one thing".
I was clearly getting too excited by the thought that the current shower of total [insert word of your choice] will be out on their ear this year.
I enjoyed the Conservative source quoted on the radio (Times Radio) at lunchtime, clearly accepting that things have gone so wrong that there's no point trying to be clever, who suggested that her being welcomed by the Labour Party represented a failure of Labour's vetting process!
For how much longer can this ridiculous zombie government stagger on?
I know it must have been difficult to resist, but did Labour really need to welcome *her* with open arms? She’s not Tory left or centrist, she’s much more Patel/Anderson wing IMO
Yes, and I imagine she's largely doing this as a means of settling scores with her former colleagues who she feels didn't support her.
The narrative of 'the conservative party have left me behind to the point where I have to join Labour' doesn't cohere anyway.
Just to correct a typo - "swell the Labour ranks in the coming Parliament is one thing" should have been "swell the Labour ranks in the current Parliament is one thing".
I was clearly getting too excited by the thought that the current shower of total [insert word of your choice] will be out on their ear this year.
I guessed what you really meant...yes, the General Election can't come soon enough, as far as I'm concerned.
Perhaps the ghastly woman imagines Labour will make her a peer.
And d'you know what? They just might.
All that can be said for Labour is that they will be better than the Tories. In the same way that Mussolini was better than Hitler.
Democracy in this country is at a very low ebb, and the one possible solution, PR voting, is unlikely to be implemented any time soon. I consider it my patriotic duty to vote Labour to rid my country of 'Rishi' and his vile crew, but I wish I lived in a constituency where it was sensible to vote Lib Dem, Green, SNP or Plaid as my conscience would be much easier.
I thought Labour have always been like this. Wilson, Callaghan Kinnock, Blair, are these shining beacons of radicalism? I have to laugh when people are disappointed in them.
Maybe she's hoping they will hire her as a policy consultant, like the guy who jumped ship last week. All the fun of working in government and none of the hassle of being an MP.
Maybe she's hoping they will hire her as a policy consultant, like the guy who jumped ship last week. All the fun of working in government and none of the hassle of being an MP.
Dan Poulter plausibly knows some things though*
*as health minister he's up to his neck in the very things he crossed the floor criticising, but even so, he's a plausible 'expert' as far as such things go, or at least it's not completely risible to suggest he might be capable of doing health policy as a gun for hire.
Maybe she's hoping they will hire her as a policy consultant, like the guy who jumped ship last week. All the fun of working in government and none of the hassle of being an MP.
Or one of Boris Johnsons former wives (who admittedly was never a Conservative Party member, but had once been a Labour member ... so not really crossing the floor in the same way).
Comments
Even active Tories in the shires seem to want little to do with their national party now.
I noticed that, too. In addition, around here it was noticeable that whilst posters etc for candidates from other parties clearly announced the name of the party, all Tory posters simply gave the name of the candidate with the word 'conservative' nowhere to be seen.
This has reminded me that many loud-mouthed whingers on the internet are in no way representative of the Great British public. Moreover, I find it hard to believe that people so motivated to whinge did not vote.
I do find the turnout disappointing. About 29% in my ward. But those who do not vote effectively give their proxy to those who do, whether they realise it or not.
Possible, but Labour had more Muslim voters (and more non-Muslim voters with a conscience) to lose than anyone else. If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your choice.
Does this apply to all those who vote Conservative? Are these peope, redeemed if they change their vote?
I'm talking about voters expectations and acceptance of the behaviour of their representatives. If you infer that such an acceptance has a moral character of its own that's up to you.
You said..."If you're voting tory already a certain amount of callous disregard for human life is already priced into your choice."
You were clearly refering to the voters
I can't verify this, but I have heard that it's never been a completely Conservative thing. Apparently, Labour candidates have done the same in some places in the past, but I can't cite chapter and verse.
There's quite a churn and turnover in Conservative councillors and activists. Many become independent and that for a range of reasons, good, bad and indifferent. Some of them do so because they get fed up of being whipped into line over every single issue.
When a Conservative Councillor tried to convince me they didn't have a whip, I replied, 'No? You're right. You don't have a whip. You've got a dirty great big cat o'nine tails behind your back ...'
I have my differences with Labour, some of which I've aired on these boards, but what I've never seen Labour do locally is tell outright porkies in their election leaflets.
The Conservatives, however, make bare-faced and outrageous claims about things they know darn well they aren't in a position to deliver. I've seen Conservative leaflets which promise to deliver things that local councils don't even have a remit or the authority to do. When you tackle them about that on the doors they feign ignorance or dismiss it. The fact is, it's not ignorance but a deliberate ploy. They cynically take advantage of most voters' lack of awareness of how local government works.
To be fair, I've known them come down hard on some of their own members who've made personal attacks on other candidates in their literature. But I've seen Conservative candidates make outrageously inflated claims during campaigns only to do absolutely nothing once they are elected, hardly attending meetings and making no attempt to repay the public's trust.
I'm not one of those who goes round accusing anyone who votes Conservative or who stands as a Tory candidate of being beyond redemption but they aren't called 'the nasty party' for nothing.
I know a woman from a very working class background who, to everyone's surprise, became a Conservative councillor down in the West Midlands some years back. I won't name the town but it's not a million miles from Telford's neck of the woods.
She was a conscientious and hard-working councillor. One evening she turned up at her local party branch meeting to hear her colleagues taking the piss out of people with disabilities, anyone who was on benefits or who was 'different' or disadvantaged in any way.
Her husband has a disability.
She sat there fuming until, unable to take it any longer, she got up and walked out. As soon as she got home she resigned from the Party and has never voted Conservative since.
Sometimes it requires a Damascus Road experience.
I have a lot of respect for individual Conservative councillors but I could never vote Tory, even if they were the only candidate on the ballot paper.
Ok, that's an entirely emotional and visceral thing and back in the day several of my family members were archetypal working class Tories. They thought I was a Communist ... 😉
I've never voted Conservative and whilst I didn't agree with their position, it's one I respected.
But I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for the current Conservative government. They deserve their impending collapse.
What worries me is that even more toxic groups like Reform will be the beneficiaries.
I accept thay there is some ambiguity there, my apologies. I was trying to say that if you vote tory then you have already priced in that the people you're electing will display to some degree a callous disregard for human life, and hence a demonstration of that is less likely to put you off voting for them than it would a party ostensibly committed to human rights. Is that clearer?
'Mwa ha ha ha ha, I'm going to vote Conservative because they eat babies for breakfast ...'
Yes, Conservative policies have very deleterious effects but outside of the swivel-eyed extreme right of the Tory party, most are generally decent folk whose ideology just happens to differ from yours.
That doesn't let the Tory Party off the hook of course but most of their supporters wouldn't see it that way and wouldn't consider 'a callous disregard for human life' as part of the programme.
So it's not as if they are consciously or subconsciously switching off their humane and compassionate instincts when they put an X next to their favoured candidate.
'I know that by doing this I'm showing a callous disregard for human life but I'm going to vote Conservative any way ...'
I don't think it works like that.
It doesn't let their followers off the hook either.
No, but there is often a heavy subtext of 'those people have had it too easy and need to be put in their place'.
I'm more thinking that they're practised in ignoring the harm done by tory policies, and a little light endorsement of genocide isn't going to breach that practised ignorance.
Maybe they should exercise their personal responsibility and do some finding out?
This.
This, too, alas! Would that it were otherwise, but we are where we are, as the annoying saying has it...
Agreed, but Starmer and his team can't really be worse than the tory criminals and psychopaths, can they?
Depends whether they get seduced into another "liberal intervention" costing hundreds of thousands of lives.
Well, there is that danger, I agree.
I was going to say this
As to Ukraine/the Middle East, I'm not so sure...
Appology accepted (but not sought for) It is clearer but I can say that I agree with you. Conservative voters are just ordinary people
That's part of it, particularly with older Conservatives, but it's an attitude that isn't confided to Tory voters by any means.
Social conservatives generally yes.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/08/conservative-mp-natalie-elphicke-defects-to-labour-party
For how much longer can this ridiculous zombie government stagger on?
I know it must have been difficult to resist, but did Labour really need to welcome *her* with open arms? She’s not Tory left or centrist, she’s much more Patel/Anderson wing IMO
That thought occurred to me, too, but I suspect she simply wants to carry on being an MP after the General Election (though there's no guarantee that Dover will re-elect her on the Labour ticket, of course).
AIUI she’s standing down
Maybe I missed something - it's been known to happen before!
OK - I see what you mean. What will Elphicke have to do to be able to work with Starmer in a Labour government, though?
When has Starmer given half a runny shit about what the party rank and file think?
I was clearly getting too excited by the thought that the current shower of total [insert word of your choice] will be out on their ear this year.
Yes, and I imagine she's largely doing this as a means of settling scores with her former colleagues who she feels didn't support her.
The narrative of 'the conservative party have left me behind to the point where I have to join Labour' doesn't cohere anyway.
I guessed what you really meant...yes, the General Election can't come soon enough, as far as I'm concerned.
And d'you know what? They just might.
All that can be said for Labour is that they will be better than the Tories. In the same way that Mussolini was better than Hitler.
Democracy in this country is at a very low ebb, and the one possible solution, PR voting, is unlikely to be implemented any time soon. I consider it my patriotic duty to vote Labour to rid my country of 'Rishi' and his vile crew, but I wish I lived in a constituency where it was sensible to vote Lib Dem, Green, SNP or Plaid as my conscience would be much easier.
From a PR perspective for Labour, much to gain, little to lose. What I think of her, is another matter entirely.
Blair was not a radical as I wanted. However, he was far more radical than many like to pretend. This is not a winning strategy for left wing ideas.
AFZ
Dan Poulter plausibly knows some things though*
*as health minister he's up to his neck in the very things he crossed the floor criticising, but even so, he's a plausible 'expert' as far as such things go, or at least it's not completely risible to suggest he might be capable of doing health policy as a gun for hire.
They made Ayesha Hazarika a baroness, so the bar is incredibly low.
There's a bar for peerages now?
I believe the House of Lords has several bars.